Crist: The great distaffers..

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

21 days is the new 40 days in modern training. Just look at Quality Road's spacing.

It's a double edged sword because he has to win every race now.

Not sure if he really has physical issues that dictate such a schedule, but he certainly could have fit the Gulfstream Park Handicap, Oaklawn Handicap, Suburban, and Jockey Club Gold Cup in there and been a lot more memorable for some fans (even if he lost a couple).

But as you suggest, these guys running the show want another Ghostzapper, not another Skip Away.

It's almost as if the "aura" of fragility makes them better somehow.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

....psstt....be quiet. We arent discussing horses that ship all over the world and beat all comers. We are just trying our best to refute that Zenyatta belongs in the discussion of one of the greatest female horses in the U.S. of all time.

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

To me that's the whole argument about her placing in history. There is no history to compare with because synthetics are so new to the US racing scene. The synthetics played into her liking and her style, and distorted the view of what took place in the BC Classic, but I believe Zen is a great horse who can run on dirt. I don't at all believe she would be undefeated if she ran 14 times on dirt against good fields, and to be considered the greatest in the US you need to have made your mark there.

[dagolfer33]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

You're talking about that guy who is affiliated with that cheating football program aren't you.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

The dirt/synthetic issue is obviously important for some in this discussion (not me). Also, I don't believe that it is fair to penalize Zenyatta for the fact that the Breeders' Cup was held in SoCal the last two years. And recognizing that equine athletes can have off days, her 17-for-17 record is a remarkable achievement.

That all being said, at this point in time, the issue for me isn't about shipping her out of town. While I'd love to see Zenyatta come to Saratoga for a race like the Ruffian or Whitney, I doubt that will happen. What I don't get is that her connections said that they were going to do things differently in 2010, and yet they haven't done anything in 2010 that they already hadn't done in either 2008 or 2009. The question is why, when Zenyatta has already beaten the boys at 10F, if she is not going to leave the West Coast, is she not contesting a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic? Their mare having won the Breeders' Cup Classic and then having contended that she should have been crowned HOY on at least one occassion, are we really to believe that there is a male horse on the West Coast against whom the Mosses are afraid of racing?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

The dirt/synthetic issue is obviously important for some in this discussion (not me). Also, I don't believe that it is fair to penalize Zenyatta for the fact that the Breeders' Cup was held in SoCal the last two years. And recognizing that equine athletes can have off days, her 17-for-17 record is a remarkable achievement.

That all being said, at this point in time, the issue for me isn't about shipping her out of town. While I'd love to see Zenyatta come to Saratoga for a race like the Ruffian or Whitney, I doubt that will happen. What I don't get is that her connections said that they were going to do things differently in 2010, and yet they haven't done anything in 2010 that they already hadn't done in either 2008 or 2009. The question is why, when Zenyatta has already beaten the boys at 10F, if she is not going to leave the West Coast, is she not contesting a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic? Their mare having won the Breeders' Cup Classic and then having contended that she should have been crowned HOY on at least one occassion, are we really to believe that there is a male horse on the West Coast against whom the Mosses are afraid of racing?

I completely agree with what you said, if it was MY horse

1. at 4 her campaign was fine
2. at 5 my only real complaint was she should have run in the HGC or PC before the classic
3. at 6, while she is not as good and the early season goal of beating RA was foiled at no fault of their own a good summer goal would have been the HGC, PC. Shipping to win the Ogden Phipps or Beldame or something is silly, she would face a field similar to the AB.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

What I don't get is that her connections said that they were going to do things differently in 2010, and yet they haven't done anything in 2010 that they already hadn't done in either 2008 or 2009. The question is why, when Zenyatta has already beaten the boys at 10F, if she is not going to leave the West Coast, is she not contesting a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic? Their mare having won the Breeders' Cup Classic and then having contended that she should have been crowned HOY on at least one occassion, are we really to believe that there is a male horse on the West Coast against whom the Mosses are afraid of racing?

There is nothing to get. They were full of shid when they said they would do things differently. They've always been full of it when talking about this mare.

It's just how they roll.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

There is nothing to get. They were full of shid when they said they would do things differently. They've always been full of it when talking about this mare.

It's just how they roll.

never trust people in hollywood or in racing.....and if you got both......run

[RockHardTen1985]

What about Banshee Breeze? No one ever mentions her as one of the best, I am fairly confident she would have beat Rachel or Z.

From 7/25/98 through 11/06/99 she ran beyers of 102 or higher every single time. She held amazing form for 16 months. In this time she won 5 Grade 1's and was a close second in 3 others, 2 of those seconds came to Beautiful Pleasure, who was another great filly.

[blackthroatedwind]

You throw around great like nerf balls.

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

What about Banshee Breeze? No one ever mentions her as one of the best, I am fairly confident she would have beat Rachel or Z.

From 7/25/98 through 11/06/99 she ran beyers of 102 or higher every single time. She held amazing form for 16 months. In this time she won 5 Grade 1's and was a close second in 3 others, 2 of those seconds came to Beautiful Pleasure, who was another great filly.

As far as being an all-time great:

She lost the BC Distaff twice and the Kentucky Oaks, arguably her 3 most important races. Even though she was champion 3yo filly in '98, she wasn't much better than Keeper Hill when looking at their head-to-head matchups.

That said, I liked that horse, and on her best day would pose a serious threat to either of our the two racing now.

[Indian Charlie]

I put Smuggler in my top 5 all time greats list.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I put Smuggler in my top 5 all time greats list.

Bushfire. If not for the talent, for the name.

[MISTERGEE]

I dont know if shes been mentioned. Although she only ran 5 times. What about Landaluce? Showed greatness in those 5 races and would have been hard for any to beat?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by MISTERGEE

I dont know if shes been mentioned. Although she only ran 5 times. What about Landaluce? Showed greatness in those 5 races and would have been hard for any to beat?

I think Crist had her in his "honorable mention" category at the bottom of his blog.

Had Pebbles in that group as well, though, I'm not sure why she didn't make the chart considering the other couple of Euros on there. Maybe because the latter two ran in more than one BC.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

When it is all said and done, we can only analyse their race records. For each argument for Personal Ensign racing at 2 and 3 you make, I can counter with Zenyatta racing is still racing at age 6 where no BC Classic has been won by a 6 yr old nevermind a female. The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete, she most likely has 3 races to run to define her place in history, one has to be fair and evaluate her after her career is over not before it.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

When it is all said and done, we can only analyse their race records. For each argument for Personal Ensign racing at 2 and 3 you make, I can counter with Zenyatta racing is still racing at age 6 where no BC Classic has been won by a 6 yr old nevermind a female. The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete, she most likely has 3 races to run to define her place in history, one has to be fair and evaluate her after her career is over not before it.

The racing as a 5yo and 6yo argument is weak if the horse in question has not raced signficantly at 2 and 3. Part of the reason why older horses wear down and lose form in advanced seasons is because they also raced as 2yos and 3yos. There are certain opportunities and qualities in a horse that are displayed in the juvenile and sophomore years that can't be shown later on. Whereas a horses 5yo and 6yo campaigns can be mirror images of each other (witness Zenyatta), nothing is ever similar between a horses 2yo or 3yo or 4yo year.

Regardless, your point about waiting for Zenyatta to end her career is well taken.

Just to be safe, we should probably post your preference directly to the guy who was baiting everyone into comparing Zenyatta to Personal Ensign in the first place.

I think he's on a unicycle somewhere pedaling backwards.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I couldn't possibly care less what people on the internet, with generally no overview of racing history, use to compare racehorses. Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. Since you brought her up, however, I will add that while racing in NY she did face males in one of NY's biggest stake races ( the Whitney ). No shame in staying home. However, a challenge here or there never hurts.

Be that as it may, Lady's Secret was owned by Eugene Klein, who also owned the San Diego Chargers, so unlike the Phipps family, and like the connections of your darling, he was based on the West Coast. Now, while obviously if someone wanted a championship campaign, ya know....wanted to earn it and not declare it, they needed to run in NY ( especially in the days of racing before the internet when a campaign didn't rest only on a horse's laurels from one day ), he still ran close to half of her races at his home base. He found it possible to do a little ( OK, in her case, a lot ) of both.

You really need to take a good look at Lady's Secret's pps some time. Frankly, you should look at the pps of ALL of those on Steve Crist's list. It might give you some very needed perspective. It isn't that any sane person would ever even entertain the notion that Zenyatta is not a spectacular horse. It's just that some of us have a better sense of history than others.

But the Lady's Secret's are very few and far between, there are not many trainer's that would campaign horses today the way Lukas once did. Campaigns are now watered down for many top horses, injuried or not look how sparingly Ghostzapper ran in his final year of racing or Medaglia Doro for that matter. It was perhaps bad circumstance we did not see her ship the last 2 years other than the Apple Blossom with The BC being situated at SA two years in a row, regardless she is expected to run in the BC Classic this year and being that it is in Ky she will ship with maybe a race in NY before that. If she is successful, she would more than earned the right to be placed with the other great fillies/mares in this game. She is still writing her destiny in the game, you can't really judge her until the book is complete

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The racing as a 5yo and 6yo argument is weak if the horse in question has not raced signficantly at 2 and 3. Part of the reason why older horses wear down and lose form in advanced seasons is because they also raced as 2yos and 3yos. There are certain opportunities and qualities in a horse that are displayed in the juvenile and sophomore years that can't be shown later on. Whereas a horses 5yo and 6yo campaigns can be mirror images of each other (witness Zenyatta), nothing is ever similar between a horses 2yo or 3yo or 4yo year.

Regardless, your point about waiting for Zenyatta to end her career is well taken.

Just to be safe, we should probably post your preference directly to the guy who was baiting everyone into comparing Zenyatta to Personal Ensign in the first place.

I think he's on a unicycle somewhere pedaling backwards.

I can't argue opinion, and I don't understand your last sentence, why would someone backpedal if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic and perhaps a race in NY say that race is the Beldame? Unless they are already biased against her. What are you talking about? Is that still not good enough for you?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

But the Lady's Secret's are very few and far between, there are not many trainer's that would campaign horses today the way Lukas once did. Campaigns are now watered down for many top horses, injuried or not look how sparingly Ghostzapper ran in his final year of racing or Medaglia Doro for that matter. It was perhaps bad circumstance we did not see her ship the last 2 years other than the Apple Blossom with The BC being situated at SA two years in a row, regardless she is expected to run in the BC Classic this year and being that it is in Ky she will ship with maybe a race in NY before that. If she is successful, she would more than earned the right to be placed with the other great fillies/mares in this game. She is still writing her destiny in the game, you can't really judge her until the book is complete

Let me get this straight.....

Zenyatta is an all-time great as long as she doesn't have to be compared to horses from all times?

At least now I get it. Maybe it is the Z that puts her over the top.