The Boss has passed.

[clyde]

..uh-oh...

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

This is what you paid Cone in those so called homegrown '90's:


1995 $4,000,000
1996 $4,666,667
1997 $6,666,667
1998 $6,666,667
1999 $9,500,000
2000 $12,000,000

Well over 40 mil. Pig bought your rings for you. Period. All of 'em that were won during his ownership. Would of had 8 if Fernando hadn't found a way to beat Righetti in '81. See, that's a completely a homegrown pitcher throwing a complete game to stop your pig from getting what would have been his third ring from us in 5 years time. I'm fully aware of this pig's ways.

scuds without Rivera - ie Homegrown talent we maybe win 1 title in the Torre era , his importance cannot be overstated

it's funny you mention Cone , pettite pitched game 5 and beat glavine in that game 1-0 , i guess he was a free agent pick up as well

i'm sure you remember jimmy key , he was a free agent as well who beat greg maddux who turned down yankee $$$ and took turner $$$ after leaving chicago - 1 pig beating another in game 6

do you think the braves win every year w/o maddux during the run in the 90's and 00's?

as for Righetti , he didn't get any rings at all , he was a rookie the same year as Fernando

Pettite , Jeter , Posoda , Rivera , Williams = all homegrown talent

that was the main core of the team and w/o Rivera , i honestly don't know how many we win

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by gales0678

scuds without Rivera - ie Homegrown talent we maybe win 1 title in the Torre era , his importance cannot be overstated

it's funny you mention Cone , pettite pitched game 5 and beat glavine in that game 1-0 , i guess he was a free agent pick up as well

i'm sure you remember jimmy key , he was a free agent as well who beat greg maddux who turned down yankee $$$ and took turner $$$ after leaving chicago - 1 pig beating another in game 6

do you think the braves win every year w/o maddux during the run in the 90's and 00's?

as for Righetti , he didn't get any rings at all , he was a rookie the same year as Fernando

Pettite , Jeter , Posoda , Rivera , Williams = all homegrown talent

that was the main core of the team and w/o Rivera , i honestly don't know how many we win

lets not forget the players acquired in trades:

Paul O'neill for Roberto Kelly (now that was a trade!)

Jeff Neilsen and Tino for kids (russ springer and sterling hitchcock?)

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

lets not forget the players acquired in trades:

Paul O'neill for Roberto Kelly (now that was a trade!)

Jeff Neilsen and Tino for kids (russ springer and sterling hitchcock?)

yes

see scuds likes to hone in on free agents and how championships were bought

but why doesn't he bring up the 80's or between 01-08

giambi , mussina , kevin brown , RJ - all were hired guns and went ringless , im sure i'm leaving others out

in the 80's you had winfield , henderson, whitson, kemp , smalley , jack clark etc etc etc

spending $$$$ doesn't guarantee anything

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

yes

see scuds likes to hone in on free agents and how championships were bought

but why doesn't he bring up the 80's or between 01-08

giambi , mussina , kevin brown , RJ - all were hired guns and went ringless , im sure i'm leaving others out

in the 80's you had winfield , henderson, whitson, kemp , smalley , jack clark etc etc etc

spending $$$$ doesn't guarantee anything

So what you are saying is that because they spent the money poorly (usually at the behest of George) that it isn't an advantage to have a enormous financial advantage? Or that the only reason that the homegrown talent was allowed to develop was because George was suspended? Or that they were able to keep that homegrown talent because there was no restriction to how much they could continue to pay them and no other big fish to snatch them away? Or that outside of Cano, Hughes and Gardner that there are virtually no other "homegrown" impact players on the current roster? That they will probably be signing Carl Crawford and Cliff Lee in the off season to $300 million dollars worth of deals?

The yankees are actually burdened by all the money they spend in Gales mind.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So what you are saying is that because they spent the money poorly (usually at the behest of George) that it isn't an advantage to have a enormous financial advantage? Or that the only reason that the homegrown talent was allowed to develop was because George was suspended? Or that they were able to keep that homegrown talent because there was no restriction to how much they could continue to pay them and no other big fish to snatch them away? Or that outside of Cano, Hughes and Gardner that there are virtually no other "homegrown" impact players on the current roster? That they will probably be signing Carl Crawford and Cliff Lee in the off season to $300 million dollars worth of deals?

The yankees are actually burdened by all the money they spend in Gales mind.

spending $$$$ doesn't guarantee anything chuck , players succeed and players fail

look at the mets , since 1977 , they have spent more than 95% of the other clubs and have 1 ring to show for it , the twins in that same time peroid have 2

what should have george and now hal done with the $$$$ , you have the most recognizable brand in sports , should they have just hoarded the $$$ over the years and not re-invested it in the brand , you and i both know if they didn't do that the brand wouldn't be as valuable today

companies take write offs all the time on failed projects , the yankees are no different

the landscape is the landscape chuck you can't fault the strong for wanting to get stronger

[Smooth Operator]

Long live The Boss



Have Born To Run in my Top 5 greatest rock-and-roll songs ever recorded, btw...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

spending $$$$ doesn't guarantee anything chuck , players succeed and players fail

look at the mets , since 1977 , they have spent more than 95% of the other clubs and have 1 ring to show for it , the twins in that same time peroid have 2

what should have george and now hal done with the $$$$ , you have the most recognizable brand in sports , should they have just hoarded the $$$ over the years and not re-invested it in the brand , you and i both know if they didn't do that the brand wouldn't be as valuable today

companies take write offs all the time on failed projects , the yankees are no different

the landscape is the landscape chuck you can't fault the strong for wanting to get stronger

Again, having an huge financial advantage is not a detriment. The Yankees are not like "other businesses". They are part of a special club that has been granted anti-trust exemptions by the US Congress. What they do in reinvesting into the team is not the issue. The issue is the system and how they are allowed to exploit it. The fact that George's own ineptness kept them from winning those 20 years doesnt "prove" money isnt everything.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Again, having an huge financial advantage is not a detriment. The Yankees are not like "other businesses". They are part of a special club that has been granted anti-trust exemptions by the US Congress. What they do in reinvesting into the team is not the issue. The issue is the system and how they are allowed to exploit it. The fact that George's own ineptness kept them from winning those 20 years doesnt "prove" money isnt everything.

This sentence isn't logically sound. If the Yankees, who had all the money, couldn't overcome George's "ineptness", wouldn't that indeed prove that money is isn't "everything"...at least as it pertains to this discussion?

If money is everything, as it seems that you are contending, wouldn't they have won despite george's poor decisions?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This sentence isn't logically sound. If the Yankees, who had all the money, couldn't overcome George's "ineptness", wouldn't that indeed prove that money is isn't "everything"...at least as it pertains to this discussion?

If money is everything, as it seems that you are contending, wouldn't they have won despite george's poor decisions?

LOL

Semantics and nit picking. You know exactly what I mean. You can't argue that they don't have a huge advantage because George was an idiot and fired his management staff on a regular basis. Given competent management during that period they certainly would have had a much greater chance to succeed than any other team. George's mismanagement doesnt discount that.

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by gales0678

scuds without Rivera - ie Homegrown talent we maybe win 1 title in the Torre era , his importance cannot be overstated

it's funny you mention Cone , pettite pitched game 5 and beat glavine in that game 1-0 , i guess he was a free agent pick up as well

i'm sure you remember jimmy key , he was a free agent as well who beat greg maddux who turned down yankee $$$ and took turner $$$ after leaving chicago - 1 pig beating another in game 6

do you think the braves win every year w/o maddux during the run in the 90's and 00's?

as for Righetti , he didn't get any rings at all , he was a rookie the same year as Fernando

Pettite , Jeter , Posoda , Rivera , Williams = all homegrown talent

that was the main core of the team and w/o Rivera , i honestly don't know how many we win

Maddux turn down 6 extra million to stay in the NL rather than joining the Yanks. By the way the Braves had already went to the WS twice before signing Maddux.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOL

Semantics and nit picking. You know exactly what I mean. You can't argue that they don't have a huge advantage because George was an idiot and fired his management staff on a regular basis. Given competent management during that period they certainly would have had a much greater chance to succeed than any other team. George's mismanagement doesnt discount that.

I actually agree if your point is that in many ways George hurt the yankees more than he helped. If your contention is that it is simply about outspending everyone else, that simply isn't true.

The yankees have to have a plan just like everyone else. They have a huge advantage with the monopoly money but they still have to put the hotels in the right places.

On another note, I can listen when a Royals fan or even a Rays fan wants to bitch about the Yanks spending money. But when I hear it from a Red Sox or Mets fan...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I actually agree if your point is that in many ways George hurt the yankees more than he helped. If your contention is that it is simply about outspending everyone else, that simply isn't true.

The yankees have to have a plan just like everyone else. They have a huge advantage with the monopoly money but they still have to put the hotels in the right places.

On another note, I can listen when a Royals fan or even a Rays fan wants to bitch about the Yanks spending money. But when I hear it from a Red Sox or Mets fan...

Actually there is a lot of truth to it.

The yankees plan is unlike anyone elses in team sports. They dont have to develop players to the degree as everyone else and dont have to spend nearly as much time on player development since the rest of the league does it for them. They get the finished product at a premium price but because of the money they have it doesnt matter. It also doesnt matter much when they make a mistake because they can just eat the contract and move on.

While Boston and the mets have more revenues than most everyone else they are still dwarfed by the Yankees. The Red Sox have been competitive because they have not only spent on FA's (though not to the degree of the yankees) but have a superior player development program. Of course having the extra cash to pay draftees over slot and the ability to re-sign its developed players matters too. The Mets havent suceeded because they have done a pretty weak job in developing players.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually there is a lot of truth to it.

The yankees plan is unlike anyone elses in team sports. They dont have to develop players to the degree as everyone else and dont have to spend nearly as much time on player development since the rest of the league does it for them. They get the finished product at a premium price but because of the money they have it doesnt matter. It also doesnt matter much when they make a mistake because they can just eat the contract and move on.

While Boston and the mets have more revenues than most everyone else they are still dwarfed by the Yankees. The Red Sox have been competitive because they have not only spent on FA's (though not to the degree of the yankees) but have a superior player development program. Of course having the extra cash to pay draftees over slot and the ability to re-sign its developed players matters too. The Mets havent suceeded because they have done a pretty weak job in developing players.

You can't have it both ways. If you want to say that George screwed them up for 20 years, then you can't say that its all about the money.

This is not nitpicking or semantics. Its a logical fallacy.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

You can't have it both ways. If you want to say that George screwed them up for 20 years, then you can't say that its all about the money.

This is not nitpicking or semantics. Its a logical fallacy.

Surely you understand that George is an outlier to this hypothesis? Are you trying to discount the insanity that swirled round the team during that period? As soon as George was out of the picture the team became a mini- dynasty. As soon as his fingerprints got back on the team they faded and again were resurrected when his health started to fail. He alone was the divisive factor that countered the huge financial advantage and when he is out of the picture the advantage becomes evident.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually there is a lot of truth to it.

The yankees plan is unlike anyone elses in team sports. They dont have to develop players to the degree as everyone else and dont have to spend nearly as much time on player development since the rest of the league does it for them. They get the finished product at a premium price but because of the money they have it doesnt matter. It also doesnt matter much when they make a mistake because they can just eat the contract and move on.

While Boston and the mets have more revenues than most everyone else they are still dwarfed by the Yankees. The Red Sox have been competitive because they have not only spent on FA's (though not to the degree of the yankees) but have a superior player development program. Of course having the extra cash to pay draftees over slot and the ability to re-sign its developed players matters too. The Mets havent suceeded because they have done a pretty weak job in developing players.

Okay. Lets look at the Roster that won that first world series in a century for the Red Sox:

c- VARITEK ACQUIRED IN TRADE
1B- MILLAR FREE AGENT
2B- BELLHORN CONDITIONAL TRADE
SS- REESE FREE AGENT
3B- MUELLER FREE AGENT
OF- MANNY RAMIREZ FREE AGENT
OF- JOHNNY DAMON FREE AGENT
OF- KAPLER FREE AGENT
DH- ORTIZ FREE AGENT

That's right, not a single home grown player in the entire every day lineup. The only one that comes close is Trot Nixon and he sucked and he missed most of the season.

How about the Pitching Staff? Lets take a look:

P- Martinez Trade (basically free agent)
P- Schilling Trade (basically free agent)
P- Arroyo Free Agent
P- Lowe Trade (legit trade)
p- Wakefield Free Agent


And the Yanks buy championships? That team didn't have one homegrown regular. Go ahead Chuck...spin it.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Surely you understand that George is an outlier to this hypothesis? Are you trying to discount the insanity that swirled round the team during that period? As soon as George was out of the picture the team became a mini- dynasty. As soon as his fingerprints got back on the team they faded and again were resurrected when his health started to fail. He alone was the divisive factor that countered the huge financial advantage and when he is out of the picture the advantage becomes evident.

Regardless, money alone isn't going to do it. It makes it a ton easier, but money alone isn't going to do it.

Ask Peter Angelos. You can spend your team right in the tank.

Surely the yankees get some credit for selecting the right free agents lately. No?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay. Lets look at the Roster that won that first world series in a century for the Red Sox:

c- VARITEK ACQUIRED IN TRADE
1B- MILLAR FREE AGENT
2B- BELLHORN CONDITIONAL TRADE
SS- REESE FREE AGENT
3B- MUELLER FREE AGENT
OF- MANNY RAMIREZ FREE AGENT
OF- JOHNNY DAMON FREE AGENT
OF- KAPLER FREE AGENT
DH- ORTIZ FREE AGENT

That's right, not a single home grown player in the entire every day lineup. The only one that comes close is Trot Nixon and he sucked and he missed most of the season.

How about the Pitching Staff? Lets take a look:

P- Martinez Trade (basically free agent)
P- Schilling Trade (basically free agent)
P- Arroyo Free Agent
P- Lowe Trade (legit trade)
p- Wakefield Free Agent


And the Yanks buy championships? That team didn't one homegrown regular. Go ahead Chuck...spin it.

Look at the 07 WS team
C- varitek=acquired in a minor league trade- has never played a single game in the majors for any team other than the Red Sox
1b- Youlkilis- drafted by Boston
2b- Pedroia- drafted by Red Sox
3b- Lowell- acquired in trade for homegrown Hanley Ramirez
Dh- Ortiz-signed off the junk pile after being released by MN-made 1.2 mill that year
ss- Lugo- FA sign 8 mill
of-Coco Crisp-acquired via trade for nobodies made-3 mill that year
of-manny -big money Fa
of-JD drew-market value fa
Sp-Beckett-acquired via trade for Hanley Ramirez
Sp-Wakefield-signed as fa after being released by Pirates -salary when signed 175k
sp-Dice K-Intl FA
sp Shilling-Big Money FA
sp-tavarez-cheap FA -3 mill a year
sp-lester-drafted
Cl- paplebon-drafted

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Look at the 07 WS team
C- varitek=acquired in a minor league trade- has never played a single game in the majors for any team other than the Red Sox
1b- Youlkilis- drafted by Boston
2b- Pedroia- drafted by Red Sox
3b- Lowell- acquired in trade for homegrown Hanley Ramirez
Dh- Ortiz-signed off the junk pile after being released by MN-made 1.2 mill that year
ss- Lugo- FA sign 8 mill
of-Coco Crisp-acquired via trade for nobodies made-3 mill that year
of-manny -big money Fa
of-JD drew-market value fa
Sp-Beckett-acquired via trade for Hanley Ramirez
Sp-Wakefield-signed as fa after being released by Pirates -salary when signed 175k
sp-Dice K-Intl FA
sp Shilling-Big Money FA
sp-tavarez-cheap FA -3 mill a year
sp-lester-drafted
Cl- paplebon-drafted

Would Dice K be considered a "big money free agent"? LOL

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Regardless, money alone isn't going to do it. It makes it a ton easier, but money alone isn't going to do it.

Ask Peter Angelos. You can spend your team right in the tank.

Surely the yankees get some credit for selecting the right free agents lately. No?

If you want to give them credit for throwing money at Sabathia and Texieria and Arod.

but this is a team that drastically overpaid for Burnett and can just absorb it. They are paying Kei Igawa 4 million this year to not play. They ate 1 million to test drive randy winn for a few weeks.

Arod makes 27 million this year
Sabathia makes 23 million this year
Jeter makes 19 million this year
Teixeria makes 20 million this year

those 4 make 17 million more than the rays entire roster

Burnett 16.5
Mariano 15
posada 13 million
Andy P 11.75
Vasquez 11 million
cano 9 million
Swisher 6.75
granderson 5.5
johnson 5.75