Are the Patriots better without Randy Moss?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I can only imagine why this thread was bumped. What a waste of life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTegy6sBQVA

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Anyone still think the Pats aren't better without Moss? Are the Titans better with him?

Definitely. Brady is spreading the field much better like he did in the pre-Moss days. Think what you want about the Patriots (I hate them for obvious reasons) but it's hard not to be awed by Brady. If I had to pick a best QB ever, I'd take him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Anyone still think the Pats aren't better without Moss? Are the Titans better with him?

It's not easy learning a teams entire playbook and verbage in like 3 whole practices.

Not to mention that Kerry Collins and Vince Young have been injured - and the starting qb is a 5th round draft pick out of Florida A&M.

Is Florida A &M even one of the ten best college football programs in the state of Florida?

Moss was a decoy on the Pats this year. They went 3-1 with him - the lone defeat a road loss against the Jets. They scored an NFL best 33 points a game in those four games.

In those four games - Moss was always covered .. and at least one other reciever or tight end was always wide open.

The Pats offensive line has been giving Brady so much time - that these guys are still getting wide open without Moss to help create space.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by philcski

Definitely. Brady is spreading the field much better like he did in the pre-Moss days. Think what you want about the Patriots (I hate them for obvious reasons) but it's hard not to be awed by Brady. If I had to pick a best QB ever, I'd take him.

He's great obviously, but I don't know about best ever.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It's not easy learning a teams entire playbook and verbage in like 3 whole practices.

Not to mention that Kerry Collins and Vince Young have been injured - and the starting qb is a 5th round draft pick out of Florida A&M.

Is Florida A &M even one of the ten best college football programs in the state of Florida?

Moss was a decoy on the Pats this year. They went 3-1 with him - the lone defeat a road loss against the Jets. They scored an NFL best 33 points a game in those four games.

In those four games - Moss was always covered .. and at least one other reciever or tight end was always wide open.

The Pats offensive line has been giving Brady so much time - that these guys are still getting wide open without Moss to help create space.

Blah, blah, blah.

You'd rather put a hot poker in your eyes than admit you were wrong....ever. Joey S. agrees though, which should always make one question their opinion.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Definitely. Brady is spreading the field much better like he did in the pre-Moss days.

I don't understand why more teams don't try and copy cat what the Cleveland Browns did on defense to the Pats.

They kept guys standing up and walking around pre-snap - sometimes as many as 10 guys up on obvious passing downs. They had the safties up and were begging Brady to beat them with long passes.

Cleveland's game plan was pretty simple - basically dare Brady to beat them deep and confuse him on passing downs by having guys walking around pre snap.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Blah, blah, blah.

You'd rather put a hot poker in your eyes than admit you were wrong....ever. Joey S. agrees though, which should always make one question their opinion.

About football?

I'm wrong all the time.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

About football?

I'm wrong all the time.

I know.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Let's go Jets!

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

He's great obviously, but I don't know about best ever.

Go through the list of the greats and give me a couple that you'd definitely want over him- there's probably a few which I couldn't debate if you chose them. It's obviously a very difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, but for my money I'd take him.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by philcski

Go through the list of the greats and give me a couple that you'd definitely want over him- there's probably a few which I couldn't debate if you chose them. It's obviously a very difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, but for my money I'd take him.

Golden Joe was better. Elway was better. Not indisputable though. Brady is in the conversation either way.

Manning is playing out of his mind.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by philcski

Go through the list of the greats and give me a couple that you'd definitely want over him- there's probably a few which I couldn't debate if you chose them. It's obviously a very difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, but for my money I'd take him.

Montana definitely. Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr maybe, but they played before I was born, so it's tough to make a a strong arguement for them. Maybe Brett Favre if he retired four years ago. Brady's better than Peyton Manning but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is fantastic. But he also plays in a system that made Matt Cassel 11-5 as a starter and makes guys like Benjarvis Green Ellis look like a Pro Bowler.

Edit: I see Dala mentioned Elway. I agree, but like she said it's disputable.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Brady got boo'd off the field at Michigan for most of his senior year.

The Strength and Conditioning Coach in New England is Juan Carlos Guerrero like. Only guy alive with 6 Super Bowl rings earned ... and he's a lucky Giants comeback away from having 7 Super Bowl rings and a 19-0 season.

Plus - one of the most improbable turn arounds in NCAA Football history happened under him.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Montana definitely. Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr maybe, but they played before I was born, so it's tough to make a a strong arguement for them. Maybe Brett Favre if he retired four years ago. Brady's better than Peyton Manning but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is fantastic. But he also plays in a system that made Matt Cassel 11-5 as a starter and makes guys like Benjarvis Green Ellis look like a Pro Bowler.

Edit: I see Dala mentioned Elway. I agree, but like she said it's disputable.

I can't speak for Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr either of course, but I do know that today's athletes are not comparable to those and I would take any of the modern QB's (1980-) based on that. Montana is the one that clearly is the competition, because if you weight Super Bowls/playoffs heaviest, he is so far ahead of the next guy it isn't even funny (and that's not to say Brady isn't ultra clutch). But if you look at the regular season statistics (especially factoring in he had the greatest receiver to ever lace 'em up on his side, and a top 50 in Taylor as well):

Montana: 3,409 completions, 5,391 attempts (63.3%), 40,551 yards, 273 TD's, 139 INT's, rating of 92.3 in what was essentially full 12 seasons

Brady: 2,908 completions, 4,574 attempts (63.6%), 33,547 yards, 248 TD's, 103 INT's, rating of 94.3 in 8.75 seasons

Elway: 4,123 completions, 7,250 attempts (56.8%), 51,475 yards, 300 TD's, 226 INT's in 16 seasons

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by philcski

But if you look at the regular season statistics (especially factoring in he had the greatest receiver to ever lace 'em up on his side, and a top 50 in Taylor as well):

Didn't you say not too long ago that Moss was the best ever?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Montana definitely. Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr maybe, but they played before I was born, so it's tough to make a a strong arguement for them. Maybe Brett Favre if he retired four years ago. Brady's better than Peyton Manning but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is fantastic. But he also plays in a system that made Matt Cassel 11-5 as a starter and makes guys like Benjarvis Green Ellis look like a Pro Bowler.

Edit: I see Dala mentioned Elway. I agree, but like she said it's disputable.

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick?

Why does Belichick get credit and not the strength and conditioning guy?

Belichick's never had any prior success as an offensive coach anywhere.

Brady's O-line is so good that he goes entire games at home where no one even touches him.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

Valid point though the difference to me is that Walsh was running schemes in the 80's that are used now. There is no doubt that the NFL as a whole is closer from top to bottom now than it was when Montana played. The advantage that SF had over most other teams was enormous and it took the league awhile to catch up. Plus Walsh was a master at finding talent from obscure places AND back then you had an easier time keeping them. I think that Montana was perfect for that system because he was smart enough to understand the system and make the right plays. Obvously there is no way to know different and you have to give credit for what he accomplished but I think that if Montana played for a decent team where QB play wasnt as important as it was in SF then, (Washington under Gibbs??), he isnt ranked nearly as high as he is.

I think Brady is similar as you point out and you can probably make the case that the two are probably very close and/or exchangable.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Didn't you say not too long ago that Moss was the best ever?

It's between him and Rice, obviously. Moss is the best ever when he wants to be- which isn't often this year. Rice never took a play off, even when he was a shadow of his former self with the Raiders.

As for Moss' impact, even if you take out the crazy stats from the 16-0 regular season his #'s are still awesome.