7/2-4 (BEL): Suburban/Dwyer; Futurity/Matron/Bed o' Roses; Prioress

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Breeders like selling G1 winners, what does quality have to do with a good sales pitch?

Isn't that the problem with having a TOBA commitee determining race grades?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

I agree 100% re: the synthetic races. The Blue Grass has become a joke. Maybe it looked like I was picking on the Prioress (which I am) but it isn't the only one. But it is a prime example of how the Graded Stakes committee appears to be asleep at the wheel. And when those Kee races are run again, this point will probably be revisited.

It is not a " prime example " of how the Graded Stakes committee is " asleep at the wheel " and if you read the arguments after my post you will understand that better.

[JJP]

Why do 3 year old fillies need to have a Grade 1 at 6 furlongs? The best fillies invariably run in the longer races. And if there are 3 YO fillies worthy of Grade 1 quality sprinting, they can test their mettle against older horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

Why do 3 year old fillies need to have a Grade 1 at 6 furlongs? The best fillies invariably run in the longer races. And if there are 3 YO fillies worthy of Grade 1 quality sprinting, they can test their mettle against older horses.

Nobody HAS to have anything....but that's an odd turn your argument has now taken.

[JJP]

OK so lets see who's run in there in the past 9 years. I will give you Indian Blessing and Champagne D'oro and Dream Rush. I will even throw in Fanny Freud, although that could be a stretch. I will even throw in this years winner, even though she had a perfect pace setup. Let's say an average of 8 horses per race that would make 72 entrants and 5 worthy of Grade 1 quality. That's about 7%. The evidence speaks for itself. There's been years where the race didn't merit Grade 2, let alone Grade 1.

I don't look for it to be downgraded since this years running was probably the deepest in years. At least this year there was a filly coming in w/a triple digit Beyer.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

OK so lets see who's run in there in the past 9 years. I will give you Indian Blessing and Champagne D'oro and Dream Rush. I will even throw in Fanny Freud, although that could be a stretch. I will even throw in this years winner, even though she had a perfect pace setup. Let's say an average of 8 horses per race that would make 72 entrants and 5 worthy of Grade 1 quality. That's about 7%. The evidence speaks for itself. There's been years where the race didn't merit Grade 2, let alone Grade 1.

I don't look for it to be downgraded since this years running was probably the deepest in years. At least this year there was a filly coming in w/a triple digit Beyer.

You need to stop arguing from weakness....and maybe even read the posts in this thread....as you have not analyzed the fields in any way.

[JJP]

I've handicapped the races and bet them probably all of the years between 2003-2011. And I keep wondering how the race hasn't been downgraded. And if they didn't downgrade the race between the "glorious" 2003-2006 years, they probably never will.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by JJP

OK so lets see who's run in there in the past 9 years. I will give you Indian Blessing and Champagne D'oro and Dream Rush. I will even throw in Fanny Freud, although that could be a stretch. I will even throw in this years winner, even though she had a perfect pace setup. Let's say an average of 8 horses per race that would make 72 entrants and 5 worthy of Grade 1 quality. That's about 7%. The evidence speaks for itself. There's been years where the race didn't merit Grade 2, let alone Grade 1.

2010: Franny Freud (G2 before), Champagne D'Oro (G1 before/after), Bonnie Blue Flag (G1p after)
2009: Gabby's Golden Gal (G1 before/after), Cat Moves (G1p after), Be Fair (G3, G1p after)
2008: Indian Blessing (G1 before/after), Secret Gypsy (mG2 after),
2007: Appealing Zophie (G1 before), Dream Rush (G2 before, G1 after)
2006: Misty Rosette (G3 before, G1p after), Wild Gams (mG3 before/after), Downthedustyroad (scratched, G1 after), Diplomat Lady (G1, G2 before), Win McCool (G3 after)
2005: Sense of Style (G1, G2 before), Acey Deucey (G2 before), Maddalena (G3 before), Burnish (G3 before)
2004: Bending Strings (G2, mG3 before/G2, mG1p after), Forest Music (G3 before/ G2, G1p after), Friendly Michelle (G3, mG1p before), Bohemian Lady (G3 before)
2003: Chimichurri (G3 before), House Party (G2 before/G3, G1p after), Sensibly Chic (G2 after), Wild Snitch (G3, G1p before), Randaroo (mG2, mG1p after), Belong To Sea (G3 before)
2002: Carson Hollow (G2, G1p after), Spring Meadow (G3, mG1p after), Proper Gamble (G2 before), A New Twist (mG3 before, after)
2001: Cat Chat (G2 before), Above Perfection (G3 after), Harmony Lodge (G1, mG2, mG3 after), Xtra Heat (mG3 before, mG2, mG1p after), Stormy Pick (G1 before)

[JJP]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

2010: Franny Freud (G2 before), Champagne D'Oro (G1 before/after), Bonnie Blue Flag (G1p after)
2009: Gabby's Golden Gal (G1 before/after), Cat Moves (G1p after), Be Fair (G3, G1p after)
2008: Indian Blessing (G1 before/after), Secret Gypsy (mG2 after),
2007: Appealing Zophie (G1 before), Dream Rush (G2 before, G1 after)
2006: Misty Rosette (G3 before, G1p after), Wild Gams (mG3 before/after), Downthedustyroad (scratched, G1 after), Diplomat Lady (G1, G2 before), Win McCool (G3 after)
2005: Sense of Style (G1, G2 before), Acey Deucey (G2 before), Maddalena (G3 before), Burnish (G3 before)
2004: Bending Strings (G2, mG3 before/G2, mG1p after), Forest Music (G3 before/ G2, G1p after), Friendly Michelle (G3, mG1p before), Bohemian Lady (G3 before)
2003: Chimichurri (G3 before), House Party (G2 before/G3, G1p after), Sensibly Chic (G2 after), Wild Snitch (G3, G1p before), Randaroo (mG2, mG1p after), Belong To Sea (G3 before)
2002: Carson Hollow (G2, G1p after), Spring Meadow (G3, mG1p after), Proper Gamble (G2 before), A New Twist (mG3 before, after)
2001: Cat Chat (G2 before), Above Perfection (G3 after), Harmony Lodge (G1, mG2, mG3 after), Xtra Heat (mG3 before, mG2, mG1p after), Stormy Pick (G1 before)

LOL. Take out 2001 and 2002 and you just proved my point.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

LOL. Take out 2001 and 2002 and you just proved my point.

Actually his post completely disproved any point you were trying to make.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by JJP

LOL. Take out 2001 and 2002 and you just proved my point.

By my count, I had 22 different horses that were competitive in Grade 1 races before and/or after the Prioress. That's an average of around 2 per running, which isn't too shabby nowadays. With an average of 8 starters per running, that's better than 25% of the field.

A little higher than 7% at any rate.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

By my count, I had 22 different horses that were competitive in Grade 1 races before and/or after the Prioress. That's an average of around 2 per running, which isn't too shabby nowadays. With an average of 8 starters per running, that's better than 25% of the field.

A little higher than 7% at any rate.

It's especially impressive given the limited Grade 1 opportunities for this division.

[Travis Stone]

On the list of races that need downgrading... Prioress is one of the races toward the bottom, probably below the line that reads, "Does not need downgrading."

The graded stakes system is not perfect... assigning a race a G1 (or any grade) title before it's run is very much so cart before the horse. But changing it would be a monumental task and prove futile.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

By my count, I had 22 different horses that were competitive in Grade 1 races before and/or after the Prioress. That's an average of around 2 per running, which isn't too shabby nowadays. With an average of 8 starters per running, that's better than 25% of the field.

A little higher than 7% at any rate.

First off, the information you posted isn't very complete. A horse can clunk up for 2nd beaten 8 lengths and never be a factor in a race. And if a horse had run 15 other times besides the Prioress, and one time they were Grade 2 placed, does that legitimize the horse running in a Grade 1? Of course not.

I'd be curious to see the Beyers of the winners.....especially from 2003 to 2006. I doubt any of them approached 100. They'd probably be lucky to hit 95.

Bottom line: if those fields of horses in those years had been running at Oaklawn, Emerald Downs or Hawthorne, the race would be a Grade 3.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by JJP

First off, the information you posted isn't very complete. A horse can clunk up for 2nd beaten 8 lengths and never be a factor in a race. And if a horse had run 15 other times besides the Prioress, and one time they were Grade 2 placed, does that legitimize the horse running in a Grade 1? Of course not.

This argument is not complete. It's all generalized BS. Find the specific horses that fit the scenarios you just described and maybe it will hold weight.

I listed 38 horses. They were either graded stakes winners (any grade) and/or grade 1 placed. I didn't list grade 2 or grade 3 placings. Of those 38, at least 27 fit the criteria more than once.

Bottom line: if those fields of horses in those years had been running at Oaklawn, Emerald Downs or Hawthorne, the race would be a Grade 3.

That must mean the Test would be a Grade 2?