The Classic

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgardn

ARl Jim.

I think it might be a case of us being a little older and having heard so many called Locks and the greatest ever. And then you got some people (Cunningham) that looks at how a horse is bred and if they run really well like Berni, well then its all over. But there is that little extra problem of being able to respond to tough trips... and just not giving in; That puts the really special ones over the top even in a loss.

I think Berni could have won this race. I really think he got pushed too early after viewing the replay again. And that is how a jock and horse figure out how to win races. By a tough loss... If they are really special.

I agree completely about Bernardini, he might have taken it with a more patient ride. Javier put him into a big time drive on the turn that looks in hindsight to be premature. No shame though because the horse that beat him is very good.

Speaking of Cunningham, I'll be curious how he explains away today. Not only Bernardini losing to Invasor but he made a big issue that scat Daddy was hands down the best two year old in the country, and he guaranteed that at a minimum Scat Daddy would finish in front of Circular Quay which he didn't.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

ARl Jim.

I think it might be a case of us being a little older and having heard so many called Locks and the greatest ever. And then you got some people (Cunningham) that looks at how a horse is bred and if they run really well like Berni, well then its all over. But there is that little extra problem of being able to respond to tough trips... and just not giving in; That puts the really special ones over the top even in a loss.

I think Berni could have won this race. I really think he got pushed too early after viewing the replay again. And that is how a jock and horse figure out how to win races. By a tough loss... If they are really special.

You're right. I think a lot of what makes a horse "great" or whatever is how he responds when he is denied the trip he wants or when he has to overcome poor racing luck. Bernardini ran great today; hell, it's hard to win this race. Maybe the jock pushed him too soon, then again it may not have mattered.

At some point, they all get beat.

I think Lawyer Ron cutting in on Bernardini and having him sit 5 off the pace was unsettling. When you are running hard and then get a position denied at a point in the race when positioning becomes important. They got impatient. Invasor did pull a gut check though. Good tough win.

The horse (Berni) has never felt what it is like to have a gut check and he did today. And he did not wilt, but he had nothing left. When you have never felt that before... experience pays. I have felt that pain while running in races. Horses have got to feel that and get over it. Horses learn to overcome if they are real runners. I would like to see him again. I really would.

I wonder how many people know what it feels like to run around a track and have your legs just die on you and get passed but not give in. You too can know what it feels like people of the board. Go to the nearest school and get out there and run some 400 meter repeats at your closest track today.

Message brought to you by the American Heart Attack association.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Speaking of Cunningham, I'll be curious how he explains away today. Not only Bernardini losing to Invasor but he made a big issue that scat Daddy was hands down the best two year old in the country, and he guaranteed that at a minimum Scat Daddy would finish in front of Circular Quay which he didn't.

lol. don't forget Henny Hughes. Hey, it's all just racing opinion BS. Although there is now an open position as "Unpaid Godolphin Shill" available.

[Betsy]

Well, as you can imagine, I am extremely disappointed.........I definitely underestimated Invasor. What a tremendous horse. Nonetheless, I am very proud of Bernardini - is a great horse right now ? No, but that's nothing to be ashamed of. He has extraordinary talent and, if he ran again, he could be one of "the ones". I doubt we'll find out, though. In any case, he ran his heart out and on a day when it seems that he didn't have his best stuff, he beat every horse but one in a very good field. There is no disgrace in running 2nd in the BC Classic -and Bernardini will be a worthy 3 year old champion (although, right now, it seems a small consolation. I admit I expected him to win the race and be HOY)

Tommy is a very classy guy - I hope he gets to train his colt next year. He really could be something. Congrats to Invasor's connections.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

lol. don't forget Henny Hughes. Hey, it's all just racing opinion BS. Although there is now an open position as "Unpaid Godolphin Shill" available.

I can't forget Henny Hughes because I keyed him.

Got out a step slow and then got knocked around and that was all she wrote.
Fortunately I had a back-up ticket with Thors Echo.

[sumitas]

Castellano panicked and went too soon. I still think Invasor would have won but it would have been much closer. Jara had the distance measured.

[almar3t]

Remember back at the Derby and the detractors of Brother Derek pointed out that facing 4-5 horse fields and leading the whole way would hurt a horse facing a field of 20 where rating experience is a plus? Remember how a horse running in front by himself winning by hugh lenghts creates a high Beyer number(Bellamy Road anyone?). I just kept thinking this was the same sceneiro for Bernadini coming into the classic. Facing tough older campaigners and with legimate speed in the race would be his real test. I felt the Preakness wasn't a real test because the Derby had sapped most of the field and of course the breakdown of Barbaro changed the complexion of that race. Bernadini ran a good race but running against 4 horse fields came home to roost with the experience of Invasor winning the day.


almar3t

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by almar3t

Remember back at the Derby and the detractors of Brother Derek pointed out that facing 4-5 horse fields and leading the whole way would hurt a horse facing a field of 20 where rating experience is a plus? Remember how a horse running in front by himself winning by hugh lenghts creates a high Beyer number(Bellamy Road anyone?). I just kept thinking this was the same sceneiro for Bernadini coming into the classic. Facing tough older campaigners and with legimate speed in the race would be his real test. I felt the Preakness wasn't a real test because the Derby had sapped most of the field and of course the breakdown of Barbaro changed the complexion of that race. Bernadini ran a good race but running against 4 horse fields came home to roost with the experience of Invasor winning the day.


almar3t

Great points Almar. If you bet value, like I do, and wanted no piece of a 4-5 favorite, it was time to bet Invasor with two hands. Bernardini was vunerable today on all the fronts you made points of, and the logical choice at the premium value was definately Invasor.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

U miss the part in the post where I admitted that I discounted Invasor. And in case u need to see it again, I started another thread where I admit again that I was WAY WRONG on Invasor.

To answer your first question of what should we call Invasor? Well maybe we should be calling him a superhorse too. He's only lost one race and u don't find many that have seasons like he did this year. I was saying to some others that, while he may not be as good as Ghostzapper was, his HOY campaign, at least he should be, was more impressive than Ghostzapper's was. GZ ran in a weak sprint and in a low class race in Jersey before his two big races. Invasor ran in the best we have to offer. Sure, his competition sucked all year until today but when u run in the very best races, your competition can't be held against u. So, yeah, maybe we should be calling him a superhorse. Is it impossible to have more than one superhorse running at a time? I don't think so.

I don't know or care about who is or is not a superhorse. All I will say about Invasor is that he has beat the best the world has to offer on dirt. Maybe there will be a fair rematch with Discreet Cat.

btw, if u thought the competition that Invasor faced this year before today sucked, then surely u must say the same about Bernardini.

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

U miss the part in the post where I admitted that I discounted Invasor. And in case u need to see it again, I started another thread where I admit again that I was WAY WRONG on Invasor.

To answer your first question of what should we call Invasor? Well maybe we should be calling him a superhorse too. He's only lost one race and u don't find many that have seasons like he did this year. I was saying to some others that, while he may not be as good as Ghostzapper was, his HOY campaign, at least he should be, was more impressive than Ghostzapper's was. GZ ran in a weak sprint and in a low class race in Jersey before his two big races. Invasor ran in the best we have to offer. Sure, his competition sucked all year until today but when u run in the very best races, your competition can't be held against u. So, yeah, maybe we should be calling him a superhorse. Is it impossible to have more than one superhorse running at a time? I don't think so.

There are no superhorses on the planet racing right now. None.

There can be two superhorses running at the same time? Of course. But no horse that was saddled today was or is a superhorse. Not Invasor, not Bernardini, not Round Pond, not anyone. Why is there such an infatuation with a superhorse? If winning one big race qualifies one for super horse status (Bernardini-Preakness, Invasor-Classic) then you better get the super horse busts ready for Giacomo, Jazil, Fu Peg, Red Bullet, and thousands of others.

Bernardini beat up on alot of crappy, over matched horses. So did Invasor. So did Lava Man. However, no one was proclaiming Invasor or Lava Man as the messiah as they were Bernardini. Everyone was setting themselves up for disappointment. They were all products of their competition. It can't be held against them BUT it cannot also be used to prop up their status.

Justifying a superhorse just because their competition is weak and they dominate it is a joke. They are the best of their class, not the best of their species.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by saucon17

Please keep Brother Derek and Lava Man
on the west coast. Their they have chance to
be competive. Although BD ran a pretty good race

Brother Derek showed he's a classy horse, he finished in front of a lot of horses, maybe they should stay home too.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Suffolk Shippers

yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!

So sick of hearing about Bernardini. All due respect to Bernie but he was never challenged before today and when the chips were down, he had nothing to give back. Bernie is still extraordinary in terms of talent, but romps over mid road 3 year olds did not justify the hype this horse got and the bloated price he made Invasor. Sweet victory!

must admit i was shouting for invasor to get up late.
my daughter said 'isn't that bernardini' when he started coming on the turn. i said yeah, but it's a loooong stretch.

when i get my horses, i want jara on them. oh yeah.

all these months, all the discussions...i kept saying invasor... then the layoff, i kept saying do NOT ignore him, i learned my lesson about layoffs from barbaro going into the derby...critics of jara--i said no, he's got what it takes. when i defended lava man, and was asked if he was my choice...no, i said invasor, but i liked lava too...but invasor, kept coming back to him.
nice race. NICE.
will invasor be back next year??? any word yet?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by saucon17

Please keep Brother Derek and Lava Man
on the west coast. Their they have chance to
be competive. Although BD ran a pretty good race

lol

funny tho...isn't it, that silver train got no grief at all, all year, about being a belmont only horse? but i agree, lava should stay in cali, and i guess other horses should stay in new york....

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I don't know or care about who is or is not a superhorse. All I will say about Invasor is that he has beat the best the world has to offer on dirt. Maybe there will be a fair rematch with Discreet Cat.

btw, if u thought the competition that Invasor faced this year before today sucked, then surely u must say the same about Bernardini.

I do think that what Bernardini beat all year sucked. I thought that what Lava Man beat all year sucked too. These are the three leading contenders for horse of the year. And the horse that I think is the best horse period, Discreet Cat, has also beaten nothing. I think that's racing today though. There are just too many spots to run in and trainers avoid having to face other top competition. They just lay it all in one basket for BC day.

I don't take anything away from Invasor at all. He's the champion and that's clear. I'm just thinking that maybe instead of knocking Bernardini off the pedestal because he lost to Invasor, maybe we should consider what Invasor has been able to accomplish this year and put him up on the pedestal with Bernardini and consider that they are both special horses instead of neither.

[King Glorious]

What else is ironic is that it was Invasor that beat Bernardini. A lot of us had started to really get down on the sheikhs for being unsporting and not running Discreet Cat here against Bernardini and for other moves like pulling Dubai Escapade from the Sprint because they had Henny and pulling Ashkal Way from the Mile because they had Librettist and Echo of Light. Ironic that as we call them unsporting, they beat Bernardini with another of their own horses. I really didn't think they would run Invasor and when they did, I took it as a sign that they really didn't think he was able to beat Bernardini because they wouldn't sink their own ship. Guess again.

[Danzig]

still think they should have run discreet as well...if he was ready enough to run if bern wasn't, than why not run him regardless?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I do think that what Bernardini beat all year sucked. I thought that what Lava Man beat all year sucked too. These are the three leading contenders for horse of the year. And the horse that I think is the best horse period, Discreet Cat, has also beaten nothing. I think that's racing today though. There are just too many spots to run in and trainers avoid having to face other top competition. They just lay it all in one basket for BC day.

I don't take anything away from Invasor at all. He's the champion and that's clear. I'm just thinking that maybe instead of knocking Bernardini off the pedestal because he lost to Invasor, maybe we should consider what Invasor has been able to accomplish this year and put him up on the pedestal with Bernardini and consider that they are both special horses instead of neither.

About the competition, maybe it does suck if you look at it in a historical context. There just doesn't seem to be a great deal of depth or quality to the older handicap ranks anymore. I guess that part doesn't bother me so much, I have just accepted the horses we have as a fact of life.

As far as your last point, hey I've already been there, glad you are now joining me. I know you have already said you were wrong about Invasor but remember you recently called him a fraud. Now you want to put him on the pedestal with Bernardini. That's fine. I give you credit for admitting it. I have for a long time considered both of these horses as the best ones running here today and knew that it would be a close race.

In my view a combination of things occurred, Bernardini was over-rated and Invasor underated. So Bernardini drops a bit and Invasor goes up a bit and we find the truth which is that they're a couple of really nice horses, not separated by much.

Imagine what it would do for racing if both of these horses were to campaign next year!! I know it won't happen, but just imagine how thrilling it would be to follow them marching towards a possible rematch in the Classic.
I know, I know, I'm a dreamer.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

About the competition, maybe it does suck if you look at it in a historical context. There just doesn't seem to be a great deal of depth or quality to the older handicap ranks anymore. I guess that part doesn't bother me so much, I have just accepted the horses we have as a fact of life.

As far as your last point, hey I've already been there, glad you are now joining me. I know you have already said you were wrong about Invasor but remember you recently called him a fraud. Now you want to put him on the pedestal with Bernardini. That's fine. I give you credit for admitting it. I have for a long time considered both of these horses as the best ones running here today and knew that it would be a close race.

In my view a combination of things occurred, Bernardini was over-rated and Invasor underated. So Bernardini drops a bit and Invasor goes up a bit and we find the truth which is that they're a couple of really nice horses, not separated by much.

Imagine what it would do for racing if both of these horses were to campaign next year!! I know it won't happen, but just imagine how thrilling it would be to follow them marching towards a possible rematch in the Classic.
I know, I know, I'm a dreamer.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. In a sport like this, where u are successful if u can win at a 35% rate, it still means u will be wrong at a 65% rate. That's a lot of wrong. This sport humbles u and u see different things in different races. I did call Invasor a fraud. If he could talk, he'd call me stupid. My only thing is that I think it's wrong to take Bernardini down (and I'm not saying u are) because he got beaten by another really good horse. As I said before, it happens. Four year old Slew beat 3yo Affirmed then the next year, 4yo Affirmed beat 3yo Spectacular Bid.

[Danzig]

true about those older beating their three year old comp...but invasor only turned four in july, being from the southern hemisphere. he and bernardini really aren't that far apart age wise...it's why they ran invasor in dubai earlier, because he still qualified as a three year old according to their rules.