Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[RolloTomasi]

Can racehorses bleed at other times besides workouts and races (eg., during routine gallops)? If so, is it safe or appropriate to give those horses lasix more frequently?

[Bill K]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

http://www.flairstrips.com/wp-conten...-Camp-2011.pdf

A good presentation on how the lungs work in a horse.

Thanks for the link. I read and it certainly was very informative. My one question would be if a horse only breathes through the nose, why are tongue ties used?

[Bill K]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

And isn't it the crux of the issue? Was Lasix originally legalized as a preventative measure for non-bleeders? Of course not, it was used to try to cure those that had bled.

Unfortunately lasix has never been proved to prevent EPIH. If it doesn't prevent why the nearly 100% use in USA racing?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Bill K

Unfortunately lasix has never been proved to prevent EPIH. If it doesn't prevent why the nearly 100% use in USA racing?

Lasix has been proven to markedly decrease the incidence and severity of EIPH in a quantitative and qualitative manner. As previously discussed in this thread, there are thought to be multifactoral causes of EIPH, and yes, lasix does not prevent EIPH in 100% of horses. Just the vast majority.

This is the valid veterinary medical proof of the drugs efficacy over decades, and there is no "opinion" available on that matter. The evidence is so strong, and the benefit to the race horse so obvious, that the American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Veterinary Medical Association both support keeping lasix as an approved race day therapeutic medication, while they support the elimination of every single other medication we have for race day use.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Bill K

Thanks for the link. I read and it certainly was very informative. My one question would be if a horse only breathes through the nose, why are tongue ties used?

To keep the horse from getting it's tongue up over the bit = out of control horse.

Some think a tongue tie helps prevent dorsal displacement of the soft palate while racing, but there's not alot of real evidence it works to do that.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Lasix has been proven to markedly decrease the incidence and severity of EIPH in a quantitative and qualitative manner.

When and where was this published?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

When and where was this published?

Well, you can read the 120 available studies on the subject over the past 40-50 years by clicking on this link and entering the words

EIPH equine

in the search term box at the top.

Then hit "search".

If you enter the terms EIPH equine lasix you'll get another 28 studies that are more specific.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Well, you can read the 120 available studies on the subject over the past 40-50 years by clicking on this link and entering the words

EIPH equine

in the search term box at the top.

Then hit "search".

If you enter the terms EIPH equine lasix you'll get another 28 studies that are more specific.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Sounds like an evasion.

I played along anyhow. Here's what I found:

-No significant differences were detected among treatments. (2009)

-At this time, there is no treatment that is considered a panacea, and the currently allowed treatments have not proven to be effective in preventing EIPH. (2003)

-In conclusion, although both modalities (nasal strip and furosemide) were successful in mitigating EIPH, neither abolished EIPH fully as evaluated via BAL. (2001)

-Although in the frusemide-control experiments, a significant reduction in mean pulmonary arterial, capillary and wedge pressures was observed both at rest and during galloping at 14 m/s on 3.5% uphill grade, all horses still experienced EIPH.(2001)

-Comparison of average and maximum EIPH scores of 44 horses with a minimum of 4 observations (2 nontreated, 1 saline-treated, and 1 furosemide-treated) indicated that although furosemide did not stop EIPH, it did reduce the EIPH score in 28 (64%) horses. (1985)

-Furosemide administered in different dosages and time intervals prior to exercise did not prevent EIPH. (1984)

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Sounds like an evasion.

I played along anyhow. Here's what I found:

No. It's not an evasion. Just surprise that anybody who has actually been reading along this thread expects there to be one paper that supports what I said - which is the uniform position of the discipline of veterinary medicine, as proven by the research.

You might read the entirety of the thread where this has been discussed already?

So now that you've "played along" superficially and shallowly, you can "play along" for real, and quote the other multiple studies that do exactly what I said, which was: Lasix has been proven to markedly decrease the incidence and severity of EIPH in a quantitative and qualitative manner.

You might also read the thread, where the concepts of "prevention" and "cause" and "attenuate" and "reduce incidence and severity" have already been discussed.

Because it appears that you are wrongly thinking that there is a claim that lasix prevents bleeding in all horses. Which nobody has ever maintained. It's clear you are confusing the different things, "prevent" and "decrease the incidence and reduce the severity".

In fact, two of the studies you superficially quoted, above, prove exactly what I said. Like this one:

-Comparison of average and maximum EIPH scores of 44 horses with a minimum of 4 observations (2 nontreated, 1 saline-treated, and 1 furosemide-treated) indicated that although furosemide did not stop EIPH, it did reduce the EIPH score in 28 (64%) horses.

-In conclusion, although both modalities (nasal strip and furosemide) were successful in mitigating EIPH, neither abolished EIPH fully as evaluated via BAL. (2001)

And one of the studies you quoted, above, about not working, isn't even talking about lasix, but an entirely different drug.

Again, as discussed throughout this thread: clinical practice and research shows that lasix works to decrease the frequency and severity of EIPH in race horses. All horses? No. Completely eliminate? No, but it has in some. Does it not work in some animals? That's right, due to what has previously been discussed here.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

It would probably be in your best interest to find some different trainers to associate with. I suggest looking for a few that actually know what they are talking about.

You mean like the ones that ship in for the Breeders Cup from Europe? Yeah, they are sure idiots.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

This is interesting info published last year.

They took 37 baby 2-year-old thoroughbreds, and exercised them at the track for 5 months. Then they breezed them over 2-3 furlongs, and looked to see if they had evidence of bleeding in their lungs. No lasix or history of racing, no training on lasix.

(sounds like the 2-year-old in training sales, doesn't it?)

24 hours after their breezes, 23 had evidence of microscopic bleeding down in the lung. 14 did not.

Now, they also found that the horses that bled? Had increased inflammation in the lung, and decreased immune response capability against bacteria and other particles that can get down in the lung. All at the microscopic level.

That's a respiratory infection waiting to happen.

That is a good reason why lasix should be permitted as a race day therapeutic medication.

Even in the 14 that didn't bleed? Did horses in the 70s and 80s have a rash of respiratory infections? I sure don't remember it. Do we even no if this microscopic bleeding causes poorer performance?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Bill K

Unfortunately lasix has never been proved to prevent EPIH. If it doesn't prevent why the nearly 100% use in USA racing?

I've been asking the same question.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Even in the 14 that didn't bleed? Did horses in the 70s and 80s have a rash of respiratory infections? I sure don't remember it. Do we even no if this microscopic bleeding causes poorer performance?

That has been discussed in some depth earlier in the thread. You can look back and read it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I've been asking the same question.

But ignoring the answers.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

That has been discussed earlier in the thread. You can look back and read it.

I'd rather read War and Peace. I scanned through it and couldn't find it.

We all know these studies will usually find exactly what the people funding the study want it to find. I prefer to use common sense. Horses raced for decades with this undetected microscopic bleeding. They seemed to be just fine, and were a lot sturdier lot than what we have now. I certainly don't think Lasix is the only problem, but shouldn't it have at least helped a little bit with horses being able to run more often?

Like I've said, as a bettor I don't really care if it is banned. I just have to laugh when those that say it isn't a performance enhancer dismiss that as ridiculous. Their actions contradict everything they say.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

But ignoring the answers.

So by your latest study we give drugs to 99% of horses Lasix because 64% have microscopic bleeding?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'd rather read War and Peace. I scanned through it and couldn't find it.

We all know these studies will usually find exactly what the people funding the study want it to find.

Well, no. Not at all. Properly done and peer-reviewed published studies are extremely valuable, as they stand up to scrutiny and questioning and dissection from "all sides".

I prefer to use common sense. Horses raced for decades with this undetected microscopic bleeding.

That's right.

They seemed to be just fine,

How can you speak to that in the least? It's a guess. I've watched horses race since the 1960's, too. How do you know they couldn't run a length faster? Or come back to their next race two weeks sooner?

Common sense - and physiology - tells me, as a veterinarian, that a horse with blood in it's alveoli can't oxygenate as well as one without microscopic blood in it's alveoli.

and were a lot sturdier lot than what we have now.

That's an assumption stated as fact.

I certainly don't think Lasix is the only problem, but shouldn't it have at least helped a little bit with horses being able to run more often?

It DOES help. ALOT. Measurably and repeatedly. There is plenty of proof over the past 40 years.

Like I've said, as a bettor I don't really care if it is banned. I just have to laugh when those that say it isn't a performance enhancer dismiss that as ridiculous.

We'll, we're just going by the science.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We all know these studies will usually find exactly what the people funding the study want it to find. I prefer to use common sense. I just have to laugh when those that say it isn't a performance enhancer dismiss that as ridiculous.

More hit-and-run quotes from choice abstracts:

-Given the purported ergogenic effects of frusemide, the external nasal strip is a valuable alternative for the attenuation of EIPH

-Improvement of performance in the furosemide trials was due more to the weight-loss related effects of the drug than its apparent alleviation of EIPH

-The existing literature references suggest that furosemide has the potential of increasing performance in horses without significantly changing the bleeding status.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

More hit-and-run quotes from choice abstracts:

You can't cherry pick out individual sentences from abstracts while completely ignoring the breadth of work and the other sentences in the paragraphs. For example, you quote this

-The existing literature references suggest that furosemide has the potential of increasing performance in horses without significantly changing the bleeding status.

But you fail to quote a few sentences later:

This is substantiated by clinical observations that the administration of furosemide to horses with EIPH may reduce haemorrhage but does not completely stop it.

Science - not your thing

Rollo, the entirely of the veterinary community has one fairly united opinion on this. What is your explanation for that?

And yes, as has been previously pointed out here, the FLAIR nasal strips have the same efficacy in decreasing the severity of EIPH as lasix does. Glad you noticed.

[Indian Charlie]

Arguing medical issues with true believers is utter folly, Rollo, Rupert, and CJ.

It's like trying to talk reason to a religious zealot. Can't be done, and it's stupid to even think you can.