I'll Have Another's value as a stallion if he sweeps the Triple Crown

[Calzone Lord]

I've heard people saying I'll Have Another would be worth more as a stallion prospect than Bodemeister or Creative Cause if he won the Triple Crown.

I giggled at this ... but it seems like a lot of people believe this and maybe I'm wildly underestimating what a Belmont win would do for his stud value?

Would a Belmont win really drive his stud value higher than that of Bode and CC?

Keep in mind -- Creative Cause is by Giant's Causeway out of a Grade 1 winning millionaire race mare (Dam took the Apple Blossom when Ashado bombed) Creative Cause was a precocious 2yo who won his debut going 5fs with a huge figure. He was BC Juvie placed. And he's trained by Mike Harrington ... who looks like Arthur Wendell or Janet Del Castillo compared to guys like Baffert and O'Neill.

Bodemeister is by Empire Maker out of a super talented Storm Cat mare who won her debut in a stakes races and took a Grade 3 second-time out. Bodemeister's 2nd dam is a multiple Graded Stakes winner by A. P, Indy out of a Roberto mare.

With I'll Have Another -- you've got a son of Flower Alley who was an $11,000 yearling ... and even though he worked fairly fast at an OBS 2yo sale -- he sold for peanuts again. Silver Charm and Skip Away were both OBS cheapies...great horses, but terrible sires.

Someone on Pace Advantage said I'll Have Another will be worth $80 million if he wins the Belmont. If that's even 1/4th true -- we live in a world gone mad.

[richard]

If you bother to look past the first generation of the pedigrees you'll see that I'll Have Another has a solid pedigree from a deep family through the years.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by richard

If you bother to look past the first generation of the pedigrees you'll see that I'll Have Another has a solid pedigree from a deep family through the years.

It's a nice cheap distance pedigree.

However, it's not a desirable pedigree for a stallion like the sensational ones that Bode and Creative Cause have.



The dam was 1-for-1 and the 2nd dam was a useful horse who finished up at Fort Erie.

The last seven who came to the Belmont with a shot at the Triple Crown (Big Brown, Smarty Jones, Funny Cide, War Emblem, Charismatic, Real Quiet, Silver Charm) -- obviously FC was a gelding and Big Brown first crop are only 2yos -- but the other five make a pretty shabby collection of stallions.

I'd have to think Bode and Creative Cause would have a ton more appeal regardless of what happens in the Belmont.

Flower Alley stands for $7,500 right now. How much bump might he get from being the first to sire a triple crown winner in 34 years?

[Indian Charlie]

Real Quiet was at least useful.

But yeah, anyone who thinks IHA will be worth more than Bode is using pretty simple minded thinking.

At least in the long run, it's pretty certain Bode will be the more valuable stallion.

[Calzone Lord]

I think Creative Cause might have the most appeal of any of them (at least to me) ...Bode included.

Hansen has a real bang-up female family.

* Hansen's dam was claimed for $5,000 by Dr. Kendall Hansen. Made her final start at Mountaineer.

* Hansen's 2nd dam routinely ran for $5,000 claiming tags at River Downs.

* Hansen's 3rd dam was a 0-for-11 Arkansas bred.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

At least in the long run, it's pretty certain Bode will be the more valuable stallion.

I'd like to hear people like Cannon Shell, ParisX etc's take on this... as they would have a better gauge on the market for these horses as stallion prospects.

[Danzig]

There is no way of knowing which of these horses will succeed as a stallion in the long run. Impeccable breeding can get you a plugged nickel. On trck brilliance can get you a smarty jones.
I have to think being (if he wins) the first tc winner in a generation would be a huge draw. Whether it lasts is another story. Also, much like our emblem when war emblem had his big year, flower alley will get some good mares...whether he becomes our emblem nd fades into obscurity is another question mark right now.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Danzig

Impeccable breeding can get you a plugged nickel. On trck brilliance can get you a smarty jones.

Yes -- which is why horses like Bodemeister and Creative Cause should have the edge as stallion prospects -- because they have two VS one.

It's not as extreme as say Bernardini VS Invasor ... but it seems clear-cut to me.

The question is will a Triple Crown label negate that. The breeding market is a good deal fashion and snake-oil.

[Danzig]

Theres always a chance he could be a huge sire like seattle slew turned out to be.
I think a huge part of his potential success in the shed will depend on who cuts the stud deal and has the right mares to support him.

Or he could end up in oklahoma.

I just figure that if he wins the belmont, hell get a huge deal and the biggest stud fees of the crop the first couple years. After all, i dont think smarty was the best bred of that crop, but look how things went down when stud deals were being made.

As for long term success, its a crapshoot for any of them.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Danzig

I just figure that if he wins the belmont, hell get a huge deal and the biggest stud fees of the crop the first couple years.

That would shock me -- and I was giggling at it when I first heard it ... but it seems to be like an almost universal opinion on boards. So, maybe I'm dead wrong.

[Danzig]

I just figure the novelty of the situation will drive up demand. I also think that flower alley didnt get off to a great start because the last few years havent been kind to many of the new studs, with people turning to tried and true successes to spend their money. I think fa has upside. And i feel that since its been so long without a tc winner, that when one appears, itll be huge.
Smarty jones got a huge deal, and didnt manage to win...i can just imagine the euphoria if this one wins it.

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I've heard people saying I'll Have Another would be worth more as a stallion prospect than Bodemeister or Creative Cause if he won the Triple Crown.

I giggled at this ... but it seems like a lot of people believe this and maybe I'm wildly underestimating what a Belmont win would do for his stud value?

Would a Belmont win really drive his stud value higher than that of Bode and CC?

Keep in mind -- Creative Cause is by Giant's Causeway out of a Grade 1 winning millionaire race mare (Dam took the Apple Blossom when Ashado bombed) Creative Cause was a precocious 2yo who won his debut going 5fs with a huge figure. He was BC Juvie placed. And he's trained by Mike Harrington ... who looks like Arthur Wendell or Janet Del Castillo compared to guys like Baffert and O'Neill.

Bodemeister is by Empire Maker out of a super talented Storm Cat mare who won her debut in a stakes races and took a Grade 3 second-time out. Bodemeister's 2nd dam is a multiple Graded Stakes winner by A. P, Indy out of a Roberto mare.

With I'll Have Another -- you've got a son of Flower Alley who was an $11,000 yearling ... and even though he worked fairly fast at an OBS 2yo sale -- he sold for peanuts again. Silver Charm and Skip Away were both OBS cheapies...great horses, but terrible sires.

Someone on Pace Advantage said I'll Have Another will be worth $80 million if he wins the Belmont. If that's even 1/4th true -- we live in a world gone mad.

So if the other two are so good,and both have been whooped by IHA twice,what does that say about the other two if they were so regally bred??

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i can just imagine the euphoria if this one wins it.

If only he does and gets bred to both Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra... that would be swell.

In the old days -- the DRF would have big features on highly anticipated new sires.






Fortunately --- they had a fearless and kind of Dickish columnist named Salvator to write stuff like this in them...

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Left Bank

So if the other two are so good,and both have been whooped by IHA twice,what does that say about the other two if they were so regally bred??

They haven't been "whooped" by IHA. Bodemeister has twice been edged by him -- and Creative Cause was beaten only a nose by him at 9 furlongs in the SA Derby.

The vast majority of racing in this country occurs at 9 furlongs or less.

Horses like Skip Away, Formal Gold, and Silver Charm beat the living hell out of horses like Distorted Humor and Arch.

They weren't bred to be attractive stallion prospects. Invasor beat Bernardini -- and everyone knew Invasor was going to be a terrible stallion. Bernardini was regally bred and had a monster edge.

The best stallions like Storm Cat, Mr. Prospector, and Danzig are typically under accomplished and fragile speed balls who can barely stay a mile.

Distorted Humor was a sprinter -- and when he would step up and take on a Skip Away or Formal Gold he would get beaten to a pulp. Elusive Quality was a sensational performer sprinting -- he failed to win a dirt route after repeated tries.

The top stamina sires like A. P, Indy, Street Cry, Arch, and Awesome Again are always regally bred.

[pba1817]

What will his value be if he sweeps Triple Crown, adds some late season G'1s and topples the BC Classic?

The older horses sure aren't much to get excited about this year... I can see this happening.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by pba1817

What will his value be if he sweeps Triple Crown, adds some late season G'1s and topples the BC Classic?

The older horses sure aren't much to get excited about this year... I can see this happening.

Whirlaway is the only horse in history to officially sweep the Triple Crown Series and win the Travers Stakes.

So -- that would be a grand slam. As obviously would the Breeders Cup Classic on his home track at Santa Anita.

However, at the end of the day, this horse will never have a fashionable stallion pedigree. He will never have "looks" ... and if I'll Have Another really did have looks ... he wouldn't have only fetched $11,000 as a yearling at auction -- and re-sell again for peanuts after his under-tack work at OBS where he showed respectable speed.

Handicapping the chances of any horse as a sire is always going to be a guessing game -- regardless of what anyone says. That's why I think you have to take the 'a chain is only as strong as its weakest link' approach. A horse like a Bernardini or A. P. Indy was always a safer bet because he had no weak links. Horses like Skip Away and Silver Charm were two of the best race horses I've seen since 1990 ... and they both had unfashionable breeding and sold cheaply at OBS 2yo auctions like I'll Have Another did.

I suppose if factors like his looks and pedigree are neglected because of race accomplishments -- it's possible he could demand WAY more money than I think is reasonable. Doesn't mean he can't be a good sire either...but the odds aren't as much in your favor.

[Danzig]

I think that was my point. He will command far more than what is reasonable....the trick is what happens after the faols start dropping, hitting sales, etc.

Fupeg for instance has impeccable looks, breeding, and won the biggest race in north america, but is perceived as a failure at stud. They can have everything go their way (which is why i mentioned plugged nickel earlier) and be a dismal stallion. Id have to think if you had to bet thok youd go with bode ahead of iha for who will succeed. But therea no giuarantees...look at tapit, who thought hed turn out like he did?

[HaloWishingwell]

Until Bodemeister and Creative Cause start winning some black type races this discussion is a no contest.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by HaloWishingwell

Until Bodemeister and Creative Cause start winning some black type races this discussion is a no contest.

You realize that both of them are GI winners, right?

[HaloWishingwell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You realize that both of them are GI winners, right?

I realize that. But winning the Norfolk Stakes for one and the Arkansas Derby for the other most likely is not going to get them a higher stud fee than IHA at this point.