Religion Getting a Bad Rap!

[dellinger63]

Seems to be a common consensus here that religion is the root of most wars, violence and atrocities. However even with the threats coming from Iran wanting to annihilate Israel in the name of religion, looking over the entire 20th century I ask what was the religion of the following individuals: Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, Hitler and Leopold II of Belgium in the Congo and in the name of what religious cause were they acting?

Can anyone floor a more despicable fab five then, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler and Lenin regardless of religion? If not I'd suggest atheism may be the most radical religion

[Clip-Clop]

Pope Urban II and Monarch Ferdinand.

Pretty sure Hitler had some religion thing going on there, something about not liking Jews if I remember correctly.

Mao hated religion and the concept so that kind of counts too.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Pope Urban II and Monarch Ferdinand.

Pretty sure Hitler had some religion thing going on there, something about not liking Jews if I remember correctly.

Mao hated religion and the concept so that kind of counts too.

You kind of made my point going from the 20th century back to the 9th and 15th centuries for players. Not sure there were many atheists back then.

In essence atheism is a religion (with a portion of its congregation radical and despising other religions) and at least in recent centuries it has been far more radical than any other.

[Antitrust32]

Hitler was in no way an atheist.

He was raised by Catholics, and considered himself to be a Christian.

[Antitrust32]

Here it is straight from Hitler's mouth.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

You kind of made my point going from the 20th century back to the 9th and 15th centuries for players. Not sure there were many atheists back then.

In essence atheism is a religion (with a portion of its congregation radical and despising other religions) and at least in recent centuries it has been far more radical than any other.

Atheism is in no way a religion. People that hate religion and act radically against religion have something else going on. I have nothing against any religion and would never suggest that what you might believe is wrong for you. It just won't work for me, faith in the unknown is a concept I cannot get behind, nothing more or less.

Hypocrisy on the other hand should be pointed out, especially among those with domain over their constituents. The church (all churches, not just one) too often preach one doctrine and follow a completely different one, Sikhs excused.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Here it is straight from Hitler's mouth.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

You don't think he was trying to play/con the crowd?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

You don't think he was trying to play/con the crowd?

he was an evil genius. I have no idea what he really believed or what he just used at propaganda.

As far as Stalin / lenin / Pol Pot go... you have to understand that communism ruled them. They wanted everythign the same.. everybody "equal" so that they would have complete control. Stalin and lenin were athiests who understood the power of relgion.. I believe a Marx quote is "religion is the opium of the people"... which is right on point IMO. They had to break down differences, religion, education, money, science etc.. between people to make everyone the same, to erase individuality.

All of these guys you name were raised deeply in religion. They were also evil, and promoted communism. They didnt start wars in the name of atheism.

To me, the majority of religions were started to promote power and greed (especially the Catholic Church) Look at radical Islam today... bin Laden used Islam as propaganda to infuriate middle eastern muslims who were already poor and brought down by their governments. He gave them a movement (the jihad).. something to gather around to blame everyone else for their problems. Stalin, pol pot, etc. they all wanted personal power and greed. All these wars and terrible acts, whether in the name of god or not, had a lot in common.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Hitler was in no way an atheist.

He was raised by Catholics, and considered himself to be a Christian.

Scholarly Opinion

According to Max Domarus Hitler promoted the idea of God as the creator of Germany, but Hitler was not a Christian or conservative.[36] Domarus also points out that Hitler did not believe in organized religion and did not see himself as a religious reformer.[36] According to historian Laurence Rees, "Hitler did not believe in the afterlife, but he did believe he would have a life after death because of what he had achieved."[37] Historian Richard Overy maintains that Hitler was not a "practising Christian," nor was he a "thorough atheist."[38] Samuel Koehne, a Research Fellow at the Alfred Deakin Research Institute, working on the official Nazi views on religion, answers the question Was Hitler a Christian? thusly: "Emphatically not, if we consider Christianity in its traditional or orthodox form: Jesus as the son of God, dying for the redemption of the sins of all humankind. It is a nonsense to state that Hitler (or any of the Nazis) adhered to Christianity of this form."[39] Koehne says Hitler was probably not an atheist and refers to the fact that recent works have asserted that he was a deist.[39]

Can one be both atheist and believe in deism?
Or once a deist suggests there may be a God (sic god) it disqualifies them from being considered atheist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...f_Adolf_Hitler

[Antitrust32]

deism and atheism are two different things. atheism is the rejection of deities.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

To me, the majority of religions were started to promote power and greed (especially the Catholic Church) Look at radical Islam today... bin Laden used Islam as propaganda to infuriate middle eastern muslims who were already poor and brought down by their governments. He gave them a movement (the jihad).. something to gather around to blame everyone else for their problems. Stalin, pol pot, etc. they all wanted personal power and greed. All these wars and terrible acts, whether in the name of god or not, had a lot in common.

Well said and I agree. However I believe the roots of religion are based in man's struggle/need to understand the beginning/where they came from and indeed man needing an opiate (a hope of afterlife or reincarnation if you will) as a way with dealing day-to-day struggles which, I'm sure included the threat of dying.

That or aliens landed and played a bad practical joke.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Well said and I agree. However I believe the roots of religion are based in man's struggle/need to understand the beginning/where they came from and indeed man needing an opiate (a hope of afterlife or reincarnation if you will) as a way with dealing day-to-day struggles which, I'm sure included the threat of dying.

That or aliens landed and played a bad practical joke.

I agree completely that your reason is why people follow relgion today, and throughout world history. People are afraid or dying, they want this world to mean something more than what it does. It is also a place to go and feel like you belong.. other people support your same thoughts and ideas.

Now I dont think those reasons are why religions are created though.. I personally think the majority of the time it has to do with power struggles. What greater way to control the masses then by telling them.. and getting them to have "faith".. that if you dont believe this, or do that, you will be damned to hell for eternity. If you have faith in what I tell you, you will have eternal bliss and happiness in heaven.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

deism and atheism are two different things. atheism is the rejection of deities.

But isn't Deism the mere acceptance that there MAY be a God, not the acceptance of a God? If a deist is on the side there probably isn't a god does that not begin to lean him/her towards atheism?

I was born and raised catholic, rarely ever attend church, support abortion as an individual choice, am skeptical of every priest that comes in contact with my nephews as a molester, support gay marriage but leave it up to the church as to whether they want to conduct ceremonies, and completely reject the belief the Pope can make no religious mistakes but still consider myself catholic. Geez I just realized I'm a Deist.

Anyway guarantee the church will welcome me back provided I still have cash.

[Danzig]

from what i've read about deists and deism, it's the a belief that a being created the world and all in it, and then left it to take care of itself. so, deists don't pray to a god, they don't think whoever the creator was is involved to take prayers.


as for hitler, et al, they used any and every means at their disposal to get and/or attempt to keep power. religion had a hand in it, whether as a way to identify enemies or to conjure support for their agendas.

when pope urban called a crusade, he was looking for a huge army to do the churches dirty work in trying to keep territories.

i think many go to church as a way to socialize; i think some go because they feel a need. but as for who truly believes, i think if people were completely honest when asked, that the amount of people who actually believe in god would be quite low.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

but as for who truly believes, i think if people were completely honest when asked, that the amount of people who actually believe in god would be quite low.

Riotesque!

I think you'll be shocked........unless 8/9 people in America are liars!

More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God

Professed belief is lower among younger Americans, Easterners, and liberals

by Frank Newport


PRINCETON, NJ -- More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/am...lieve-god.aspx

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Riotesque!

I think you'll be shocked........unless 8/9 people in America are liars!





http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/am...lieve-god.aspx

like i said, completely honest. i've read articles that discuss the fear of being 'found out' that one doesn't necessarily believe. then there's conversations, countless times when people have said they go to church to 'play it safe'. they don't really have faith, but just in case, they go to church.
people don't want to be different, they don't want to risk being ostracized if they don't exhibit a belief.
and here, in the bible belt, most people go to church as a way to socialize.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

like i said, completely honest. i've read articles that discuss the fear of being 'found out' that one doesn't necessarily believe. then there's conversations, countless times when people have said they go to church to 'play it safe'. they don't really have faith, but just in case, they go to church.
people don't want to be different, they don't want to risk being ostracized if they don't exhibit a belief.
and here, in the bible belt, most people go to church as a way to socialize.

Here's a question Carnac the Magnificent.

Is Obama, Romney, Reid, Pelosi, the Bush's all lying about their belief in God?

If not which one's are?

Or are they all part of the 10% you think believe in God.

and again this post has Riot stink all over it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Here's a question Carnac the Magnificent.

Is Obama, Romney, Reid, Pelosi, the Bush's all lying about their belief in God?

If not which one's are?

Or are they all part of the 10% you think believe in God.

and again this post has Riot stink all over it.

altho it is stated there shall be no religious test for office, most would never step out on that limb and say they don't have a faith. i remember reading that people said that jefferson was an atheist, he had a tough row to hoe because of that claim. even then, religion was a bone of contention. why do you suppose it's specifically listed in voting rights amendments.
and yeah, how dare i suggest pols would lie.

i'm not quite sure why you're getting so defensive about this topic. yes, there is a consensus, and not just on this board, that religion has caused and now causes a lot of ills. it's a deserved reputation. i didn't give it that rep, it gave it to itself.
i think some people are good people, and would be with or without a specific religion to follow. and there are plenty of hypocrites who are in a religion as well. i just know what my experiences are, what i've found in people, and what i've found throughout the histories i've read.
sorry if it bothers you.

[Danzig]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew..._b_684551.html


try reading that dell, perhaps it'll help you to understand where i'm coming from. or maybe not.
maybe you'll just call me carnac or riotesque some more. whatever.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew..._b_684551.html


try reading that dell, perhaps it'll help you to understand where i'm coming from. or maybe not.
maybe you'll just call me carnac or riotesque some more. whatever.

You're coming to the belief 9 of 10 really don't believe in God based on one's actions not words then.

(Compare: if you really believed that the bridge you were about to cross was going to collapse, would you even chance driving over it?)

So using that logic 9 of 10 cigarette smokers do not believe smoking causes cancer and death.

Compare: If you really believed that cigarettes cause cancer, would you light up?