NTRA Top 10 Poll

[Calzone Lord]

I've been on Twitter of late.

It's nearly impossible to have any kind of substantive discussion on there because the format is kind of like open text-messaging.

The most popular horse racing argument, on an almost weekly basis, has been the NTRA poll. It's usually Marcus Hersh of the DRF who ignites it...so props to him for getting some discussion going, I guess.

The NTRA Top 10 poll is pointless...horses should always be rated by division. You're left seeing industry professionals making text-message style arguments with each other about things like Princess of Sylmar VS Cross Traffic. Or Palace Malice VS Dance To Bristol, or Groupie Doll VS Obviously.

That poll is apples to oranges nonsense...and if asked, I wouldn't accept a vote in it.

I only assume the NTRA sees some marketing value in the poll.

Here's what I assume the top 10 poll might look like if it was restricted to human athletes instead of equine ones:

1. Lebron James
2. Peyton Manning
3. Adrian Peterson
4. Floyd Mayweather
5. Serena Williams
6. Tom Brady
7. Usain Bolt
8. Miguel Cabrera
9. Tiger Woods
10. Mike Trout

I realize this sport is firmly in the hands of marketing people...and I'm sure a poll like this is supposed to have some value to fans in the eyes of marketing people...but Jesus.

When Mike Watchmaker is the genius who is doing everything the right way, something isn't right.

[Cannon Shell]

I stumbled onto to one of those Marcus Hersh NTRA twitter debates and while I could care less about it, was amused to find that one of the voters is a young woman blogger who has never actually been to a track. I suppose actually seeing a horse race live isn't a requirement for having a pertinent opinion but this is also someone whose Good Ole days is Rachael Alexandra and Curlin. It would be like me getting to vote on the top 10 chefs in America poll because I eat a lot and watch Iron Chef America on occasion.

[blackthroatedwind]

Fan education is not the same thing as Fan Engagement...and that's sort of the problem. The internet has promoted the belief, a belief only held by the less informed, that somehow every opinion is equal. You only learn from people that know more than you do about a given subject. Since when is that a bad thing?

[randallscott35]

I can see being hung up on a Eclipse award but not to lose sleep over a dopey poll.

[Calzone Lord]

the NTRA Poll should be “indicative of who may be crowned a divisional Champion in their respective divisions and ultimately reflect Horse of the Year.”

Contradicting.

Who can be Horse of the Year:

Game on Dude will be if he wins the Breeders Cup Classic.

Wise Dan almost certainly will be if Game on Dude doesn't win the Breeders Cup Classic and he wins the Mile.

Cross Traffic can be if he wins out and both Wise Dan and Game On Dude flame out.

Other than that, the field is about 100-1 to win Horse of the Year. Which means you don't need a top 10 poll...you need a top 2 and a half.

As to "indicative of who may be crowned a divisional Champion in their respective divisions" I guess you're supposed to vote for divisional leaders who can't sniff horse of the year after that?

That would make Princess of Sylmar #4

Riveting.

[Sightseek]

I just hope that this person who has linked Twilight/Vampires with thoroughbred racing doesn't have a vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ZqeyFT_s8

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Contradicting.

Who can be Horse of the Year:

Game on Dude will be if he wins the Breeders Cup Classic.

Wise Dan almost certainly will be if Game on Dude doesn't win the Breeders Cup Classic and he wins the Mile.

Cross Traffic can be if he wins out and both Wise Dan and Game On Dude flame out.

Other than that, the field is about 100-1 to win Horse of the Year. Which means you don't need a top 10 poll...you need a top 2 and a half.

As to "indicative of who may be crowned a divisional Champion in their respective divisions" I guess you're supposed to vote for divisional leaders who can't sniff horse of the year after that?

That would make Princess of Sylmar #4

Riveting.

What if Royal Delta wins Saturday then wins the Classic?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Contradicting.

Who can be Horse of the Year:

Game on Dude will be if he wins the Breeders Cup Classic.

Wise Dan almost certainly will be if Game on Dude doesn't win the Breeders Cup Classic and he wins the Mile.

Cross Traffic can be if he wins out and both Wise Dan and Game On Dude flame out.

Other than that, the field is about 100-1 to win Horse of the Year. Which means you don't need a top 10 poll...you need a top 2 and a half.

As to "indicative of who may be crowned a divisional Champion in their respective divisions" I guess you're supposed to vote for divisional leaders who can't sniff horse of the year after that?

That would make Princess of Sylmar #4

Riveting.

Your wrong, its over according to this guy, Wise Dan has had the best year and its not close.

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/edito...e.cgi?id=39764

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Your wrong, its over according to this guy, Wise Dan has had the best year and its not close.

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/edito...e.cgi?id=39764

I believe there are a few scenarios that could make a few different horses HOY.
If Orb or Palace Malice were to win Saturday then win the BC Classic I think either of them could be HOY. If Cross Traffic wins Saturday then wins the BC Classic I think he would be HOY. If Will Take Charge wins the BC Classic I think he would be HOY. If Royal Delta wins this Saturday then beats the boys in the BC Classic I think she would win. If Game on Dude wins the Classic you could give it to him. I believe if any of the above happen, they would deserve HOY over Wise Dan and his all grass and 2 Grade 2 campaign. Taking nothing away from him either, he is great.

[10 pnt move up]

I just found it odd that Game On Dude demolished the fields in the SA Handicap, the Hollywood Gold Cup, and the Pacific Classic, the fastest figures of the year, and does not even merit consideration.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I just found it odd that Game On Dude demolished the fields in the SA Handicap, the Hollywood Gold Cup, and the Pacific Classic, the fastest figures of the year, and does not even merit consideration.

Where is he right now? I thought he was running Saturday, are they going straight to the Classic? If he wins the Classic, he is HOY.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Where is he right now? I thought he was running Saturday, are they going straight to the Classic? If he wins the Classic, he is HOY.

You have a different opinion than that of the writer who said Wise Dan would have to "flop" to lose it.

He is going to the Classic off the layoff.

I wont be shocked to see him lose the classic, its a tough race, but his year has been spectacular. I think its the best season by a west coast horse since......hmmm, well maybe AP Indy who won the SA Derby, Belmont, Breeders Cup Classic. Lava Man had a couple good years but nothing this dominant.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

You have a different opinion than that of the writer who said Wise Dan would have to "flop" to lose it.

He is going to the Classic off the layoff.

I wont be shocked to see him lose the classic, its a tough race, but his year has been spectacular. I think its the best season by a west coast horse since......hmmm, well maybe AP Indy who won the SA Derby, Belmont, Breeders Cup Classic. Lava Man had a couple good years but nothing this dominant.

I dont think Wise Dan deserves it over any of the horses I mentioned if any of those things happen. Hell, even if Flat Out or Alpha were to sweep the JCGC and Classic I would then give it to either of them over Wise Dan. I know everyone loves Wise Dan, but the horse is a miler. Nothing wrong with that, he is great..... I just dont love him for HOY. Honestly, if POE comes back and wins the BC Turf I give him older turf horse over Wise Dan, even if Wise Dan wins at Keeneland and then the Mile.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I can see being hung up on a Eclipse award but not to lose sleep over a dopey poll.

That's kind of the point. The same unqualified people voting here will soon if not already be voting on Eclipse awards. Amazingly being a voter in the NTRA poll regardless of how poor your vote helps build a resume of sorts to become an eclipse voter. Now IMO about 98% of the time devoted to the Eclipse awards is a waste since few horses actually have full campaigns and far too often a BC win just trumps all but they are our official year end awards and some respect should be shown. Some of the recent eclipse ballots have been embarrassing

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I dont think Wise Dan deserves it over any of the horses I mentioned if any of those things happen. Hell, even if Flat Out or Alpha were to sweep the JCGC and Classic I would then give it to either of them over Wise Dan. I know everyone loves Wise Dan, but the horse is a miler. Nothing wrong with that, he is great..... I just dont love him for HOY. Honestly, if POE comes back and wins the BC Turf I give him older turf horse over Wise Dan, even if Wise Dan wins at Keeneland and then the Mile.

well, now.....

how do you reconcile this in your own head? do you really think that it makes sense? the horse does nothing but win. you say he's great, but in the same sentence hold 'he's a miler' against him. flat out is an enjoyable horse; he's also very much a belmont horse. i would see putting money on him for the jcgc, but i'd be hard pressed to use him away from belmont.
i think right now it's between wise dan and game on dude, but still racing left.

what i don't like is what chuck mentions, people using the bc to cast a vote, and not knowing a thing about the rest of the years races. some absolute head scratchers make the ballot.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, now.....

how do you reconcile this in your own head? do you really think that it makes sense? the horse does nothing but win. you say he's great, but in the same sentence hold 'he's a miler' against him. flat out is an enjoyable horse; he's also very much a belmont horse. i would see putting money on him for the jcgc, but i'd be hard pressed to use him away from belmont.
i think right now it's between wise dan and game on dude, but still racing left.

what i don't like is what chuck mentions, people using the bc to cast a vote, and not knowing a thing about the rest of the years races. some absolute head scratchers make the ballot.

I acknowledge his accomplishments and believe he is great. Would him not winning HOY suddenly make him not great?? I was just pointing out that I believe there are 5-6 horses who could be HOY over him. They all have one thing in common dirt route winners.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That's kind of the point. The same unqualified people voting here will soon if not already be voting on Eclipse awards. Amazingly being a voter in the NTRA poll regardless of how poor your vote helps build a resume of sorts to become an eclipse voter. Now IMO about 98% of the time devoted to the Eclipse awards is a waste since few horses actually have full campaigns and far too often a BC win just trumps all but they are our official year end awards and some respect should be shown. Some of the recent eclipse ballots have been embarrassing

I think they should go to a points-based system, but then they won't be able to market the "drama" of the awards.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I acknowledge his accomplishments and believe he is great. Would him not winning HOY suddenly make him not great?? I was just pointing out that I believe there are 5-6 horses who could be HOY over him. They all have one thing in common dirt route winners.

having seen other lists of yours, i'm sure this one is just as good.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I think they should go to a points-based system, but then they won't be able to market the "drama" of the awards.

If it is as inept as the Derby points system it may create more drama than they bargained for. I don't understand why anyone really cares that much about these awards outside of the immediate connections anyway.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

'When Mike Watchmaker is the genius who is doing everything the right way, something isn't right'

kudos. sence your now part of the press so to speak i hope you continue to have your oppinions and not cave to pressure..