Most Impressive in Defeat?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If it were run on Friday Strong Mandate might have won!

I don't know, Havana put him away pretty easily on the far turn.

He just got hit in the head by the 1/16th pole and fell apart under a very confident ride.

I think Strong Mandate ran a great race though -- and they would have been a clear 1-2 on Friday's track.

Pletcher's horses ran lousy this week. Lukas had two great efforts on the day.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

He was told by Pletcher not to use the stick.

Was that publicized anywhere? I never heard it before, might have been useful info.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Or he might have plugged him in

Eric guillot said he didnt have that late surge

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

He was told by Pletcher not to use the stick.

any idea why?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

With all due respect how can you say that its nonsense and also say that a domestic rider may have gotten to change leads and say that not switching very well may have been the difference?

Do you believe that he lost because he didn't change leads? That was the only possible thing I could infer from Steve's statement.

If so, then the only thing you could believe is that a domestic jockey could have gotten him to change leads. I say that because, other than him not changing leads, he was ridden flawlessly in my opinion.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Was that publicized anywhere? I never heard it before, might have been useful info.

A listener to my show tweeted the question and Stevens answered it subsequently after his appearance.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

A listener to my show tweeted the question and Stevens answered it subsequently after his appearance.

On racing's biggest stage, bettors aren't told a rider is instructed not to use the whip. That is pretty weak.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

On racing's biggest stage, bettors aren't told a rider is instructed not to use the whip. That is pretty weak.

I don't recall trainer instructions to jocks ever being made public before a race

[Calzone Lord]

It had to be by instruction. It looked kind of ridiculous.

I doubt it would have mattered any, because he was wide stalking a brutal fast pace chasing a pair of horses on some kind of suicide mission ... but still.

The horse ran a 9.60 furlong at Barrett's after being whipped repeatedly, no idea where Pletcher could have gathered that he hates being whipped.

I'm positive he was never hit with a whip in a morning workout. I guess he came to that conclusion based on Honor Code rallying at him in the Champagne? Debt Ceiling must also hate the whip, since he was eased and stopped to a walk because of the pace that day. Grand Arrival was beaten 20+ chasing that Champagne from 3rd as well. He obvious hates the whip.

Like I said, it probably didn't matter...but what a silly thing to instruct a jockey to do on an undefeated horse. The only time that horse was ever put to heavy whipping, he ran a furlong in 9.60 -- I guess that makes him a horse who sulks from the whip. He completely fell apart late under a lazy hand ride.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

I don't recall trainer instructions to jocks ever being made public before a race

That seems a little more than an instruction to me. Just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. But as a bettor I would definitely downgrade a horse that isn't going to be whipped.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I think this is more about your eagerness to bash the domestic jocks than arguing that a more efficient moving North American style rider might have gotten the little extra out of Declaration that potentially changes the outcome. As Chuck just said, you're at cross-purposes regarding the lead change.

No, it has everything to do with the fact that I think Joseph O'Brien rode a terrific race and that a "domestic rider" would have been hard pressed to provide an appreciable advantage.

Surely you know me well enough to be confident that I'll bash domestic jockeys without doing so indirectly!

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ria Antonia is far more likely to never win any race again than she is to earn a single qualifying point for the Derby.

More than a couple of clockers thought she was training very well coming into the race

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Do you believe that he lost because he didn't change leads? That was the only possible thing I could infer from Steve's statement.

If so, then the only thing you could believe is that a domestic jockey could have gotten him to change leads. I say that because, other than him not changing leads, he was ridden flawlessly in my opinion.

I simply said that a rider with a different style may have made the difference. Never said he didnt give the horse a good ride.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

On racing's biggest stage, bettors aren't told a rider is instructed not to use the whip. That is pretty weak.

Since when are trainers instructions made public? Perhaps since Stevens has never been on the horse and was a last minute sub Pletcher told him something that was already known by his regular rider?

Is anyone who likes the horse on pp's not betting him because the trainer told the jockey the horse doesnt like the whip?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

More than a couple of clockers thought she was training very well coming into the race

That may be true but that doesn't mean she has a prayer at being a serious Derby contender.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since when are trainers instructions made public? Perhaps since Stevens has never been on the horse and was a last minute sub Pletcher told him something that was already known by his regular rider?

Is anyone who likes the horse on pp's not betting him because the trainer told the jockey the horse doesnt like the whip?

Well, it isn't quite the same. We are told when horses won't have a whip, so why not when they won't use it?

What is the harm in divulging it? That is all I'm asking. We aren't talking about instructions about race strategy or anything. I don't see what the rider change matters, wouldn't hurt a thing to divulge the info with his regular rider either.

And yes, it is a handicapping factor. If whip use didn't matter, nobody would use them. You know that. So not using one is a disadvantage in a game where races are decided by scant margins.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, it isn't quite the same. We are told when horses won't have a whip, so why not when they won't use it?

What is the harm in divulging it? That is all I'm asking. We aren't talking about instructions about race strategy or anything.

Who exactly is going to divulge it to whom?

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That may be true but that doesn't mean she has a prayer at being a serious Derby contender.

lol... I agree she is not likely to get derby qualifying points

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Who exactly is going to divulge it to whom?

Things are divulged to bettors every day. How do we find out when a rider won't carry a whip? Call me crazy, but that same system might actually work here too!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, it isn't quite the same. We are told when horses won't have a whip, so why not when they won't use it?

What is the harm in divulging it? That is all I'm asking. We aren't talking about instructions about race strategy or anything. I don't see what the rider change matters, wouldn't hurt a thing to divulge the info with his regular rider either.

And yes, it is a handicapping factor. If whip use didn't matter, nobody would use them. You know that. So not using one is a disadvantage in a game where races are decided by scant margins.

and couldn't a jock get questioned if it was felt he didn't prevail to the wire?

the sooner everyone involved in this sport comes to grips with bettors being a huge factor, the better.
we are told about lasix, blinkers, shoes, jock changes, weight difference, etc. whether a whip is used should be public info as well.

i guess going forward it's something bettors need to take note of in baby races, whether they go to the stick or if it's just carried along for ballast.