A question on Easy Goer...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MLC

Maybe I'm just getting old and losing some patience, but it does seem that the thoughts that some people expressed was more than just the usual excitement that is generated when a good horse runs. I hope that the lessons learned from this summer will be remembered. However, I confess that I was extremely enthusiastic about Barbaro.

so many WANT another great horse so bad. that's a big part of it. another part of it is huge egos. everyone wants to claim to be the one who got the scoop on said superhorse. so any above average effort is trumpeted as the warning shot fired by the next super horse.
and then some of us who call for patience are heckled and jeered for being sticks in the mud.


and i'm a confirmed eye roller. absolutely. if they certified stuff like that, i'd have that certificate framed and proudly displayed.

[MLC]

Originally Posted by oracle80

No different probably than guys who rolled there eyes at me who saw Sec, Bid, Affirmed, Alydar, Dr Fager, Buckpasser, etc when i talked like I did about the horses I saw in the 80's and 90's.
That was the point I was making Hooves. Not that anyone is smarter than anyone, just that whats great now wasn't great back then. And the older you are, the more you probably roll your eyes these days.
The horses we just talked about in the 80's and 90's, the guys older than me are gonna say they weren't Affirmed or Bid or Sec or Alydar or fager.
I guess the quality overall has slipped(I've blamed the adventof the BC a million times on here and firmly believe its detroyed and is destroying the game), and even i was a little taken aback at the figs that were posted. It jogged some memories.

I don't think that the quality overall has slipped. It's just that the way horses are raced nowadays prohibits a good horse from being tested many times against other good horses.

[MLC]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

so many WANT another great horse so bad. that's a big part of it. another part of it is huge egos. everyone wants to claim to be the one who got the scoop on said superhorse. so any above average effort is trumpeted as the warning shot fired by the next super horse.
and then some of us who call for patience are heckled and jeered for being sticks in the mud.


and i'm a confirmed eye roller. absolutely. if they certified stuff like that, i'd have that certificate framed and proudly displayed.

Maybe we should make a certificate up. It definately would be up on my wall. Heck, I may be awarded many times.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Fewer posters have contributed as much quality information in as short a time as bravado. Well done!

Thanks!

By the way, trust me...you're only saying that now because I've been posting absent my own personal opinions on some of these issues!

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

Is that you Darrell?

Dinver

You caught me!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MLC

Maybe we should make a certificate up. It definately would be up on my wall. Heck, I may be awarded many times.

i'd have to display it with my 'teeth gritting' trophy.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I love these figs that Bravado is posting. It is a great reminder of what a good horse genuinely looked like. Seeing Cigar's numbers is very interesting, as at the time everyone that used numbers recognized him as a good horse, and very consistent, but over all not supremely fast. When you compare him to some of the other horses Bravado has posted that is obvious. The problem is that these days very mediocre good horses get annointed as superstars. There was Smarty Jones, a relatively slow good horses ( save his LAST win...the Preakness ), and then there may be the worst offender of all time...Afleet Alex. People talk about him with hushed tones, and he was a nice horse, just slow. Would either of those two horses have run some really " fast " races had they stuck around, possibly, but also quite possibly they would have been swallowed up as perhaps some others improved. I highly doubt Afleet Alex would have had an easy time with the Flower Alley of the summer of 2005. On the other hand, Seattle Slew was " slow " as a 3YO and it wasn't until he was really tested, in the Fall of his 4YO season, that we found out how good he really was.

The point....stop annointing superstars based on a few races and keep some perspective on what we are seeing. These numbers of horses from the last 20 years offer some great perspective. I would like to see Precisionist's numbers, and the distances he was running, at his peak ( and before his awful unretirement ). Then there was Turkoman. Man, these were GOOD horses, and they raced.

Agreed...I always wondered what horses like Turkoman, Precisionist, Snow Chief, Alysheba etc ran on a career-wide basis. I know Beyer's were made in the 80s on the same or similar scale...I wish they'd put them into some kind of publication. The DRF's "champions" book lists all figures from like 1992 on, but anything before that is tough to find. I just have a few random ones such as the ones I've posted.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Bravado I don't know who you are but PLEASE come back and give us Alysheba's numbers. I have to see those.

I don't think I have anything beyond what I posted unfortunately. Would love to see them myself. I recall reading that he ran a 113 in the Preakness and I know his BC Classic was a 122. Somewhere in my old room at home I have a DRF with a list of the BC winning figs from the first several years but I haven't been able to find it - that would obviously produce his # against Ferdinand. Have to look again next time I'm at my parent's house.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Mike,
I saw you mentioned Groovy.
Sad to say, Jose Martin passed away recently. RIP.
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/tod...67952&subsec=1

Speaking of Groovy, he ran a 133 and a 131 in a couple of his 1987 wins (fastest figs of the past 20 years).

[Danzig]

what baffles me....horses supposedly aren't as durable. but geldings are?! look at perfect drift, lava man, funny cide (god bless him). they aren't fragile, they keep running. and i'm not talking running sore, these guys lay it on the line, and do it well. yeah, lava can't ship, but my god when he's at home (ala silver train) he's unbeatable. the skimming of this generation.
galls me, it really does, how they pawn off these 'fragile' creatures, while their 'lesser' brethren are the real men after all...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

I don't think I have anything beyond what I posted unfortunately. Would love to see them myself. I recall reading that he ran a 113 in the Preakness and I know his BC Classic was a 122. Somewhere in my old room at home I have a DRF with a list of the BC winning figs from the first several years but I haven't been able to find it - that would obviously produce his # against Ferdinand. Have to look again next time I'm at my parent's house.

do you have mineshafts?? or have i just missed them somewhere above...

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

do you have mineshafts?? or have i just missed them somewhere above...

Mineshaft
JC Gold Cup - 114
Woodward - 117
Suburban - 115
S. Foster - 117
Pim Special - 118
Ben Ali - 116
N. Orleans - 116
Whirlaway - 107
Before that: 103-104-96

If there's any other's in particular that people want, let me know...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

If there's any other's in particular that people want, let me know...

do they have to be famous horses?

[Bravado2112]

Since he was mentioned earlier,
Skip Away
BC Classic - 110
JC Gold Cup - 100
Woodward - 119
Iselin - 114
Hol Gold Cup - 117
Mass Cap - 121
Pim Special - 118
Gulf Park - 114
Donn - 109

BC Classic - 120
JC Gold Cup - 116
Woodward - 116
Iselin - 115
Whitney - 115
Suburban - 118
Mass Cap - 122
Pim Special - 125
Texas - 92
GPH - 115
Donn - 112

JC Gold Cup - 115
Woodbine - 108
Travers - 111
Haskell - 113
Ohio Dby - 110
Belmont - 105
Preakness - 107
Derby - 87
Bluegrass - 113
Fla Derby - 104
Alw - 100

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

do they have to be famous horses?

Only if you want actual figs! I have every champion from 92-present (possibly every stakes winning fig from the same time period if it was in the American Racing Manual), BC winning figs from 88-present, the 1990 BC card, whatever can be extrapolated from horses who ran in races won by any of the above, plus a few other assorted random figs from earlier stars like EG & SS as posted previously.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

Mineshaft
JC Gold Cup - 114
Woodward - 117
Suburban - 115
S. Foster - 117
Pim Special - 118
Ben Ali - 116
N. Orleans - 116
Whirlaway - 107
Before that: 103-104-96

If there's any other's in particular that people want, let me know...

ok, that's it. sealed the deal.
you're going on my christmas card list!

lol thank you sir. you are much appreciated.

oh, and i haven't actually MAILED christmas cards in years....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

Since he was mentioned earlier,
Skip Away
BC Classic - 110
JC Gold Cup - 100
Woodward - 119
Iselin - 114
Hol Gold Cup - 117
Mass Cap - 121
Pim Special - 118
Gulf Park - 114
Donn - 109

BC Classic - 120
JC Gold Cup - 116
Woodward - 116
Iselin - 115
Whitney - 115
Suburban - 118
Mass Cap - 122
Pim Special - 125
Texas - 92
GPH - 115
Donn - 112

JC Gold Cup - 115
Woodbine - 108
Travers - 111
Haskell - 113
Ohio Dby - 110
Belmont - 105
Preakness - 107
Derby - 87
Bluegrass - 113
Fla Derby - 104
Alw - 100

do you have hers??? you know, the one. the only. personal ensign???

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

Only if you want actual figs! I have every champion from 92-present (possibly every stakes winning fig from the same time period if it was in the American Racing Manual), BC winning figs from 88-present, the 1990 BC card, whatever can be extrapolated from horses who ran in races won by any of the above, plus a few other assorted random figs from earlier stars like EG & SS as posted previously.

this reminds me of pais mentioning opening pandoras box earlier...it's like christmas, and the kids open a huge gift and play with the box it came in. you are that box! lol

[Bravado2112]

Some other notes:

* Easy Goer's unadjusted fig in the Wood was a 124. They ultimately awarded it a 110 b/c it seemed unlikely that Triple Buck and whoever else finished in the money suddenly ran absurdly high figs of 118-119.

* From Beyer on Speed: "From 86-92, 7 horses ran 123 or better: Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Precisionist, Turkoman, Best Pal, Phone Trick, & Groovy." (That means the 122 Alysheba ran in the BC Classic was his lifetime top. Alysheba ran a 95 in the BC Juv and a 113 in the Preakness)

* Personal Ensign ran a 115 in the BC Distaff - that's all I have on her although I seem to recall her Whitney being a 115-116 but could be wrong.

* Groovy 131-134 in '87 Roseben & True North.

* Affirmed 128 (lifetime top) is JC Gold Cup vs Spectacular Bid

* Winning Colors = 111 Derby, 106 Preakness, 115 Distaff

* General Assembly 130+ in Travers

[blackthroatedwind]

Sounds like I might be able to convince Beyer to do an article about the kind of numbers good horses used to run and compare them to these recent flashes in the pan in order to provide some perspective. If nothing else I will find out some numbers from him.