Non-winners of an Eclipse or Championship

[Sightseek]

OK, so English Channel is groovy and all, but who are the BEST horses to ever be looked over for an Eclipse or Championship (pre 1971, when there were no Eclipses). Complete winnners can be found here by clicking on the Eclipse or linking to the list of Champions:

http://www.tra-online.com/eclipse.html

My vote goes to ALYDAR.

[LARHAGE]

Skip Away got the shaft when Favorite Trick won.

[King Glorious]

King Glorious for 2yo champion of 1988. Three graded stakes wins, one grade one. Easy Goer got the award even though he lost his biggest test in the BC Juvenile.

Java Gold for 3yo champion of 1987. He went into the JCGC as the 1-9 favorite in the race. A win in that race, on top of his wins in the Whitney, Travers, and Marlboro Cup would have easily made him the 3yo champion and HOY. In essence, it could be said that he was 1-9 to be HOY. Instead, he was upset by course and distance specialist Creme Fraiche (Belmont, back to back JCGC winner). He was the best 3yo of 1987 without question but Alysheba ended up the Eclipse winner.

[KirisClown]

Lure

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Most accomplished horses to never win a championship?

Dirt router: Alydar

Dirt sprinter: Phone Trick

Turf: Lure

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

King Glorious for 2yo champion of 1988. Three graded stakes wins, one grade one. Easy Goer got the award even though he lost his biggest test in the BC Juvenile.

I agree that King Glorious was a very nice, and under appreciated horse.

However, Easy Goer was a great 2-year-old. He registered a 116 Beyer when he won the Champagne, and he beat his Is It True with resounding ease in at least two starts prior to being upset by him, in the mud, on BC day.

[Gander]

Lure

Lure got very unlucky that he raced in a time where there were superb turf horses. Imagine if Lure ran against the likes of Tin Man, EC and Cacique? LOL!

Paradise Creek was my favorite out of that group Lure ran against. Star of Cozzene was also very great.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Best filly or mare to never win an Eclipse is a hard one.

Three viable options I can think of.

* Bold 'N Determined (8-for-8 lifetime in two turn dirt route races. 7-for-7 lifetime in Grade 1 races run on fast dirt tracks. 12-11-1-0 lifetime in all dirt route races. Only filly or mare to ever beat Kentucky Derby winning filly Genuine Risk on a fast track. Was passed in the stretch, but came again to beat GR by a nose in the Grade 1 Maskette at one-mile.

or

* Melair (who was the most talented of any fillies to never win an Eclipse)

or

* Sharp Cat (who was far more accomplished than lightly raced Melair, and probably more brilliant than the incredibly gritty Bold 'N Determined.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

King Glorious for 2yo champion of 1988. Three graded stakes wins, one grade one. Easy Goer got the award even though he lost his biggest test in the BC Juvenile.

Java Gold for 3yo champion of 1987. He went into the JCGC as the 1-9 favorite in the race. A win in that race, on top of his wins in the Whitney, Travers, and Marlboro Cup would have easily made him the 3yo champion and HOY. In essence, it could be said that he was 1-9 to be HOY. Instead, he was upset by course and distance specialist Creme Fraiche (Belmont, back to back JCGC winner). He was the best 3yo of 1987 without question but Alysheba ended up the Eclipse winner.

"without question" is a stretch. Alysheba won the Derby in amazing fashion (after just about digging his nose out of the ground when clipping the heels of Bet Twice), went on to win the Preakness, and missed winning the Breeder's Cup Classic by a whisker.

--Dunbar

[mark2061mn]

majestic prince. he got the shaft for 3yo male. oh, that was before 71, so nevermind. arts and letters did win the championship 3yo title though.

vanlandingham the year he won the award pretty much was a fraud too, though at least precisionist came back to win an eclipse for sprinting. greinton was a much better horse than vanlandingham that year, and if not for precisionist, would have won hoy easily. and vice versa!

that was a great rivarly, btw.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

"without question" is a stretch. Alysheba won the Derby in amazing fashion (after just about digging his nose out of the ground when clipping the heels of Bet Twice), went on to win the Preakness, and missed winning the Breeder's Cup Classic by a whisker.

--Dunbar

Alysheba didn't really prove to me that he was much better than Bet Twice. They split their four meetings that year, Alysheba taking the Derby and Preakness while Bet Twice took the Belmont and Haskell. Polish Navy was also right there with them. He took the Jim Dandy (beating Cryptoclearance) before being twice beaten by Java Gold (Travers and Marlboro). When he was able to get away from Java Gold, he came back to win the Woodward, beating older horses and Bet Twice in the process. Java Gold beat them all in the Travers. A lot of people were left to wonder about the legitimacy of the Travers due to the sloppy track but Cryptoclearance was a confirmed off-track runner and he was no match for JG. When he backed up his win by taking the Marlboro, people knew he was the real deal, especially when Polish Navy came back to win the Woodward.

Alysheba was a very fine horse as a 3yo. He was the best horse when dq'd in the Blue Grass and he was a convincing winner of the Derby and Preakness. He ran a very nice race when second in the Haskell and another one when second in the BC Classic. But it's worth noting that from the middle of May through the end of the year, he only won a single race, the Super Derby. For the year, his record was three wins in 10 starts (four if u give him the Blue Grass). That's hardly overwhelming. And I know that he lost the Classic by a nose to the HOY Ferdinand....but in my opinion Ferdinand was one of the weakest HOY winners in my 22 years following the game, maybe the weakest. He only won four of 10 starts that year. A HOY with a losing record? He's so unregarded historically that he won the Derby and the BC Classic, was a HOY.....and still is not in the hall of fame.

Where Alysheba made his legacy was as a 4yo. That season, he dominated like few others have in the last 30 years.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I agree that King Glorious was a very nice, and under appreciated horse.

However, Easy Goer was a great 2-year-old. He registered a 116 Beyer when he won the Champagne, and he beat his Is It True with resounding ease in at least two starts prior to being upset by him, in the mud, on BC day.

Easy Goer was a really good 2yo. I wouldn't call him great. The Champagne was a very nice win but I don't think it was more impressive than KG's Hollywood Prevue. EG was given a 116 Beyer in his race; KG ran a 1:21 1/5 in his, which at the time equalled the second fastest time EVER by a 2yo. EG's loss in the BC was indeed viewed as an upset by everyone at the time but in hindsight, it was a precurser to future events. Everytime EG was faced with a really big challenge, he lost. The Juvenile was his big test as a 2yo. He lost. The Derby was his big test in the first half of his 3yo season. He lost. He rebounded in the second half of the year and was ready to take his place on the mantle as one of the sport's all-time greats in the Classic. And he lost again.

I have no doubts in my mind that had KG raced in NY and EG raced in Cali, the historical records would show a different horse as champion.

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm not sure not being " much " better than Bet Twice was not VERY good. Bet Twice was a mighty good 3YO and would have drowned some of the recent 3YOs that have been unreasonably lauded as " great ". The simple truth was that 1987 was a tremendous year for 3YOs and perhaps as deep a group as we have seen in the last 30 or more years.

Personally I favored Java Gold but unfortunately his only race against Alysheba, and the others, was in the slop in that great Travers. Yeah, I think he would have won on a dry track, but unfortunately that's only conjecture. And, what Alysheba did as a 4YO, without Lasix, will stamp him as one of the greats of my lifetime.

Talking and thinking about these horses only makes the paper tigers we see nowadays seem all the more mediocre. The older a racefan you are the harder it is to appreciate the lightly raced would-be champions of today.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Easy Goer was a really good 2yo. I wouldn't call him great. The Champagne was a very nice win but I don't think it was more impressive than KG's Hollywood Prevue. EG was given a 116 Beyer in his race; KG ran a 1:21 1/5 in his, which at the time equalled the second fastest time EVER by a 2yo. EG's loss in the BC was indeed viewed as an upset by everyone at the time but in hindsight, it was a precurser to future events. Everytime EG was faced with a really big challenge, he lost. The Juvenile was his big test as a 2yo. He lost. The Derby was his big test in the first half of his 3yo season. He lost. He rebounded in the second half of the year and was ready to take his place on the mantle as one of the sport's all-time greats in the Classic. And he lost again.

I have no doubts in my mind that had KG raced in NY and EG raced in Cali, the historical records would show a different horse as champion.

You're nuts.....not that it's such a bad thing.

In defense of Easy Goer, both losses you mention were on wet tracks at Churchill Downs. And, like Alysheba vs. Bet Twice, losing to Sunday Silence was FAR from a disgrace.

I saw King Glorious win the Haskell, and surely you know his career MUCH better than I do, but that Haskell field was hardly spectacular. But, he did drown them.

Easy Goer was a monster.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not sure not being " much " better than Bet Twice was not VERY good. Bet Twice was a mighty good 3YO and would have drowned some of the recent 3YOs that have been unreasonably lauded as " great ". The simple truth was that 1987 was a tremendous year for 3YOs and perhaps as deep a group as we have seen in the last 30 or more years.

Personally I favored Java Gold but unfortunately his only race against Alysheba, and the others, was in the slop in that great Travers. Yeah, I think he would have won on a dry track, but unfortunately that's only conjecture. And, what Alysheba did as a 4YO, without Lasix, will stamp him as one of the greats of my lifetime.

Talking and thinking about these horses only makes the paper tigers we see nowadays seem all the more mediocre. The older a racefan you are the harder it is to appreciate the lightly raced would-be champions of today.

In a way, u are right. The real truth is that all of those 3yo's (Java Gold, Alysheba, Bet Twice, Polish Navy, Gulch, Cryptoclearance, the forgotten Lost Code) were really good that year. I think it's far and away the best class in terms of talent AND depth that I've ever seen. I haven't even included the Derby favorite Demons Begone or a turf star like Trempolino or the fillies like Very Subtle, Miesque and Sacahuista. There was another highly regarded but not nationally known filly named Personal Ensign that year. Miesque too.

I absolutely agree with u that Alysheba's 4yo season was one for the ages and that seasons and horses like these we are speaking of make these horses of today look really bad. But I blame the humans more than the horses. I don't think horses like Bernardini, GZ, and Discreet Cat are any less talented than those horses from the past. They just don't get the opportunities to show it the same way. If those horses from the past were running today, they wouldn't be any less talented than they were but we wouldn't get the chance to see it on display and proven the way we did then.

Oh yeah, my original point wasn't to say that Alysheba and Bet Twice weren't that good. They were. It was to say that as good as Alysheba was, I didn't end that year with the clear feeling that he was better than Bet Twice was and after watching Bet Twice get handled in the Woodward by Polish Navy, who couldn't come close to beating JG, I felt the clear best horse was obvious. It will always kill me that he was 1-9 to be HOY and then ended up getting nothing.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're nuts.....not that it's such a bad thing.

In defense of Easy Goer, both losses you mention were on wet tracks at Churchill Downs. And, like Alysheba vs. Bet Twice, losing to Sunday Silence was FAR from a disgrace.

I saw King Glorious win the Haskell, and surely you know his career MUCH better than I do, but that Haskell field was hardly spectacular. But, he did drown them.

Easy Goer was a monster.

Again, u are correct. There was nothing disgraceful about EG losses to Sunday Silence. It was simply one great horse beating another great horse. EG doesn't need to be defensed. His record and accomplishments speak for themselves. It's just that little point that bothers me that he lost all three big ones.

For some reason, talking about horses that lost races but weren't disgraced has got me to thinking about Medaglia d'Oro. He was always criticized as being a 9f horse and unable to run 10f. Just because he lost some races to some better horses at 10f doesn't mean he couldn't run it effectively. It took a monster effort by Candy Ride to beat him in the Pacific Classic. It's arguable that Candy Ride was one of the most talented horses of the past 20 years at least. It took a huge effort by Pleasantly Perfect to beat him in Dubai and the effort MDO put in when second in the BC Classic to Pleasantly Perfect, after dueling with Congaree all the way, well, I don't think there are that many horses that would have been able to finish second running that kind of race. I don't know how most people would feel but I think that if I were to rank the top-10 10f horses over the past decade, Pleasantly Perfect would be on that list. So it was no disgrace for MDO to lose those three races to those two horses. Without them being around, he probably wins all three and would be looked at in a totally different light right now.

As for KG's Haskell, he beat nothing at all. He never actually beat any horses of significance in his whole career. Maybe Music Merci was the best he ever beat. I had Samm ask Chris McCarron about KG and how he would have fared against EG and SS when he was on ATRAB. He said that up to a mile, they wouldn't have caught KG because he was too fast but that past that distance, they were probably better horses. I defer to his expertise on the issue, especially considering he rode KG and SS. And I remember asking Gary Stevens before the SA Derby what he thought about KG and he said that if KG had been in the SA Derby, he thought he, and not Sunday Silence, would be the favorite.

[mark2061mn]

another horse from that 1987 crop that WOULD have been a monster was the danzig colt named qualify. he is the horse that ran 2nd in that crops bc juvie race and he had tremendous upside. he was much like another horse that ran back then, gate dancer. he was pretty goofy, but i thought he was starting to put it together and was turning into a real nice horse. he died unfortunately before he ever ran as a 3yo.

i believe gulch and gone west were both in that crop as well. that was an amazing group.

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm glad Gone West was just mentioned as I was about to chastise KG for leaving him out. He lost close ones in the Wood to Gulch and I also believe he was third in the Whitney behond Java Gold and Gulch but I'm not certain about that.

And, KG, I completely agree about Medaglia D'Oro and this mistaken " can't get 10F " rap. His second in the BC was arguably his best race ever when you take the pace into account. He was a very good horse going 10F and it is far from clear he was any better at 9F.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

majestic prince. he got the shaft for 3yo male. oh, that was before 71, so nevermind. arts and letters did win the championship 3yo title though.

vanlandingham the year he won the award pretty much was a fraud too, though at least precisionist came back to win an eclipse for sprinting. greinton was a much better horse than vanlandingham that year, and if not for precisionist, would have won hoy easily. and vice versa!

that was a great rivarly, btw.

Sorry I worded that wrong, I meant an Eclipse or the Championship, which was awarded before 1971 when the Eclipse awards came out.

[boswd]

the year Tiznow beat out Lemon Drop Kid. I still say that year LDK should have won the award.