Who is an owner? What's your story?

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by DropofHope

WOW! Are you a great judge of winning horses or lucky? or both? If you don't mind me asking - how substantial of an investment did it require from each partner? If you do mind....I totally understand!!!

My other question is - how did it come to pass that you had 4 friends who were also involved in racing?

OOOOOOOOOO

[my miss storm cat]

Storm Cadet...

You just about had me in tears with your post.

I want to ask you..... the colt who took 3rd last week? What's his name?

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Storm Cadet...

You just about had me in tears with your post.

I want to ask you..... the colt who took 3rd last week? What's his name?

Highland Cat...trained here in NY by Bill Turner of Seattle Slew fame! I still have a small share of a pinhook venture I did 2 years ago.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Highland Cat...trained here in NY by Bill Turner of Seattle Slew fame! I still have a small share of a pinhook venture I did 2 years ago.

Let us know the next time he runs and best of luck with him!

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by DropofHope

WOW! Are you a great judge of winning horses or lucky? or both? If you don't mind me asking - how substantial of an investment did it require from each partner? If you do mind....I totally understand!!!

My other question is - how did it come to pass that you had 4 friends who were also involved in racing?

When it comes to picking the horses the credit went to our trainer ( family friend ) and no matter how good you are at finding the horse it take alot of luck to just get to the races, much less win one.

We bought our first filly from a 2 yo in training sell at Hollywood Park in 86. A tiny little filly with obscure breeding and she sold for $4000. 7 months latter we started her at Fairplex Park and she went wire to wire for our first win. Training cost at the time were about $2000 a month, but that has gone up in 20 years.

The partners all worked together , played the horses and could use a write off on our taxes. We were real lucky to come out of the venture without losing alot of money and had great time.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Most will second that.

absolutely.
I seconded last night but the post was deleted. I'll try it one more time.

[mark2061mn]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Joined West Point TB in 2002 in 2 partnerships. Didn't know crap (still don't) about breeding and buying. Chose from a catalog...Storm Cadet because we are Red Storm at St Johns and Erinsouthernman because my daughters name is Erin. Go figure!

Storm Cadet, trained by Gary Contessa, ran late Aug. his initial race with Pat Day aboard at Saratoga and wins going away vs NY breds. I can't even remember the walk to the winners circle. MY first win as an owner. Big party post race in clubhouse with all the partners. Great experience I'll never forget. WPTB chooses to race him 3 weeks later at Grade 1 Hopeful Stakes. Going against Zavata, Sky Mesa, Roaring Fever, Rights Reserved and Pretty Wild. I remember driving to Saratoga by myself that day from Long Island. Got to Sar and didn't know what entrance to go in so trainer Pat Biancone saw me fumbling around and he took me in to owners boxes. Going up the escalator he asked me what race I had a horse in and I told him, and he had the race fav Zavata the #1 ranked 2yo Juvenile. He was very kind to me and wished me good luck! Big underdogs in a race won by Sky Mesa..but heck it was great to race in a Grade 1 and be in the Saratoga paddock that day with national TV audience and meeting Jeanine Edwards and all the ESPN racing crew.

Disappointed on that days outcome, many of the West Point owners met back at Sar that evening under the stars for beers and lick our wounds. Terry Finley took me aside and told me to cheer up as my next colt was racing the very next day and he was expecting a huge effort.

Well, Erinsouthernman, trained by Rick Violette, runs a great race in open 2yo race. 8-1 ML turns into a 2-1 fav at 1st click on tote! The word got out...clockers spread the news on him. He runs away from the field in a 7f race. Now I've got 2 winners out of 2 in their maiden race and BOTH at Saratoga. YES, I did now realize how fortunate I was. Left VERY HUMBLED with tears in my eyes from Sar.

Next out was Storm Cadet running in the Bongard Stakes at Belmont. We are race favorite, but who is entered against us. Some NY Bred-Funny Cide. Well, he crushes everybody that day and that race really set FC off on a great career!

Erinsouthernman's next race was Grade 1 Champagne Stakes at Belmont. We took third against Toccet and Ice cold beer at Reds. 3rd in a $500,000 race. Now we've got some black type here!

1 month later I'm at work and I get the phone call every owner dreads...all the person on the phone says is Storm Cadet had a training accident and had to be put down. He's crying and now so am I. You talk about the highs and lows of racing. That hit me hard and it lasted for months. We had him insured big but the check we got felt shi-ty to cash. Man I loved that big colt. He had sooo much potential all the trainers at Belmont said.

Now my hope is Erin. Late Dec DRF has Erin as the 6th ranked 2 yo with a great shot in the 2003 Derby. I get a call in early Jan that a large outfit was making a bid for Erin because all of their 2yo's had crapped out and they had no derby hopefuls. They offered us 7 figs for him. I was the only owner who voted no, so we agreed on retaining 25% ownership and selling the rest to Kentucky outfit for $650,000.

Needless to say, they trained too him hard, ran him into the ground too early in his 3yo training season & never ran in any triple crown races or Graded stakes company again, and won 2-3 times at Churchill and Turfway in allowance company. He was finally claimed away and ended his career racing at Asinoboia in Canada!

Took a year off from ownership and in 2004 joined a smaller NY partnership who I was also very successful with with 2 claimers. One gelding who we claimed for 30 ended up making more than 200G in 2 1/2 years (2005 ran 11 times and was 6 wins 3 places and 2 shows), another filly we claimed for 35 and also made more than 200G including several non graded stakes wins and ITM placings at NYRA tracks.

I left the partnership last year after having a disagreement with their management and what constituted legitimate fees and expenses for managing partner from our owners purse share winnings. That experience really soured me on the ownership part of racing. I've stayed out as an owner this year, keeping only a small piece of a colt who just took 3rd at Colonial last week!

The partnership wasn't CVF by any chance, was it?? I used to be in that partnership and it was very shady.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by mark2061mn

The partnership wasn't CVF by any chance, was it?? I used to be in that partnership and it was very shady.

Bingo....you guessed right!

[mark2061mn]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Bingo....you guessed right!

I bolted quick from them in 2004. I was in 2 different partnerships with a totla of 5 horses. They are not very trustworthy, they withold alot of information they shouldn't. I learned alot ( not from them ), from hanging out in the backstretch but it also soured me and a friend that was in it with me. He wrote some nasty emails to the group before we left. You probably remember. Hope you have better luck in the future.

Mark.

[The Bid]

Happens more often than new owners realize. Good information here for Kristi.

You cannot be successful in this game without being surrounded by trustworthy people. I think thats why the DT partnership has been successful. No unreal expectations, and having a plan.

Sorry to hear the story about the partnership you guys were in, but thats pretty much the norm and not the exception.

[Holland Hacker]

I am a partner in two different horses with two different outfits.

One I got into in 2002 and the second one I just got into in last December.

I will not be entering into any more with the first outfit as the only individuals that have a shot at making money is the general partner. It is a dreadful how much they mark up the horses that they are selling and then the cut they take on the winnings is pretty high also. At least this was not a real costly mistake the horse has done very well it will be interesting to see how the p-ship unfolds when the mare is done racing.

The second horse is also a partnership but it seems like there is a lot more visability into the finances of the partnership & the payout of purses. I am optomistic that this will be a better venture than the first. If it doesn't work out I may have to give up the ownership thing until I can afford to either claim a horse or consult with a trainer and buy a yearling.

Hopefully this second venture works out.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

[Storm Cadet]

With West Point, I found them very professional and up front with their business plan and practices. They were open to new clients and spent a lot of time explaining the expenses and mark ups etc. They didn't with hold any race track info, in fact encourages going on the backstretch and meet with trainers and staff. You got along with winning photos, a cd or video of each win. With WPTB...what you see is what you get. The are like a Full service Wall Street financial company with PR, sales, customer relations people all assembled to help you. They have Buzz Chance as their yearling go to guy! Yes they are expensive...but they advertise themselves as the top outfit.

Now with the other outfits, they bill themselves as the Charles Swab (low cost-minimal expenses) partnership. They bill themselves as no owner expenses except minimal. They portray themselves that way on their web site as well as in person. But what you don't see is what kills ya. I'd rather be told UP FRONT PRIOR to joining a partnership than to be in one and then find out all their hidden little secrets of how they make their management profit. We won't go into all their ways here. PM me if you'd like a lesson in what questions to ask and in how to spot the wolves in sheeps clothing so you don't get fleeced like many others.

Remember a rule, these people start their own for profit horse stables to make money-YOUR MONEY. Win or lose...they make MONEY-YOUR MONEY! Their business models are set up so THEY are protected and the only losses are the investors.

If anyone is seriously thinking about joining a partnership do two things: Read Cot Cambells book "Lightening in a Jar". It is the best out there and is the gold standard IMO on things to know Prior to joining any outfit. Two, get EVERYTHING in writing and ask questions.

Look to join the next opening of DT's next offering! Their business plan is the best for new owners looking to get into the best game there is and meet great people and have some fun...win or lose!

[phystech]

Originally Posted by DropofHope

This sounds like a really good way to start out! Did you know much about the sport prior to that first partnership?

I knew just enough to be able to make somewhat reasonable judgements about my involvement. And yet, once I got in, I realized I didn't know as much as I thought I did. I grew up going to the track with my father, as he was a big fan of racing. I was introduced to the backstretch by my high school friends who's father was a big name trainer in MD, at the time. Both friends have gone on to be very successful trainers in their own right.

Originally Posted by DropofHope

How did you find a partnership with 50 ppl in it? That seems like a lot of people!

Through an internet newsgroup. Indeed it was a lot of people - and there's good and bad about that. We were all very new, if not completely new, to the ownership portion of racing. It was trying at times but it was quite a learning experience. I could afford to lose $400 so I took the chance. Had it been a $1k or more buy-in at the time, I probably wouldn't have done it.

Originally Posted by DropofHope

Did you always live near the horses you owned? Part of my hesitation here is it seems many of the partnership are in the KY area or in NY. Probably I'm not looking in the right places, because it seems there should be quite a few opportunities in So Cal, as well.

The first partnership was based in MD so, yes, I was near the horse and was able to go to all of the races. Lots to be said for that. And yet, even though I still live in MD, I joined KY based DT Stable because it's easy enough to fly to most of the tracks we might run at. Southwest makes it affordable.....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Remember a rule, these people start their own for profit horse stables to make money-YOUR MONEY. Win or lose...they make MONEY-YOUR MONEY! Their business models are set up so THEY are protected and the only losses are the investors.

Very well stated and true.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Look to join the next opening of DT's next offering! Their business plan is the best for new owners looking to get into the best game there is and meet great people and have some fun...win or lose!

Look for details on the next offering around opening day at Saratoga.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Remember a rule, these people start their own for profit horse stables to make money-YOUR MONEY. Win or lose...they make MONEY-YOUR MONEY! Their business models are set up so THEY are protected and the only losses are the investors.

As Chuck said, yes, very well stated and very true. It is crucial to remember -- and most people either forget or don't ever realize -- that these partnerships have a business model. They are not in the business of racing horses, making money from purses as their primary revenue source, and making money for the investors/limited partners/etc. These partnerships are in the business of syndicating horses and selling partnership interests. Think about it.

While this may or may not be obvious to some, and it might be simple -- it really is important to think this concept through.

Eric

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

With West Point, I found them very professional and up front with their business plan and practices. They were open to new clients and spent a lot of time explaining the expenses and mark ups etc. They didn't with hold any race track info, in fact encourages going on the backstretch and meet with trainers and staff. You got along with winning photos, a cd or video of each win. With WPTB...what you see is what you get. The are like a Full service Wall Street financial company with PR, sales, customer relations people all assembled to help you. They have Buzz Chance as their yearling go to guy! Yes they are expensive...but they advertise themselves as the top outfit.

Now with the other outfits, they bill themselves as the Charles Swab (low cost-minimal expenses) partnership. They bill themselves as no owner expenses except minimal. They portray themselves that way on their web site as well as in person. But what you don't see is what kills ya. I'd rather be told UP FRONT PRIOR to joining a partnership than to be in one and then find out all their hidden little secrets of how they make their management profit. We won't go into all their ways here. PM me if you'd like a lesson in what questions to ask and in how to spot the wolves in sheeps clothing so you don't get fleeced like many others.

Remember a rule, these people start their own for profit horse stables to make money-YOUR MONEY. Win or lose...they make MONEY-YOUR MONEY! Their business models are set up so THEY are protected and the only losses are the investors.

If anyone is seriously thinking about joining a partnership do two things: Read Cot Cambells book "Lightening in a Jar". It is the best out there and is the gold standard IMO on things to know Prior to joining any outfit. Two, get EVERYTHING in writing and ask questions.

Look to join the next opening of DT's next offering! Their business plan is the best for new owners looking to get into the best game there is and meet great people and have some fun...win or lose!

At the end of the year, what would you estimate it cost you for WPTB?

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by ELA

If 90% of the people in this business lose money . . . there is a great opportunity for the other 10%. All you have to do is figure out how to be part of the 10%.

Good luck and enjoy!

Eric

Great post... Eric...IMO out of that 90% I bet half of the people LOSE money because of unscrupulous management people who end up charging more for THEIR expenses than the horses and those 10% who make money are either single owners or are the management people themselves! That's why there are literally HUNDREDS of partnership companies that have popped up since 2000, because these people have learned the way to insulate themselves from losses, get paid up front by investors and what ever happens happens. There is one NY based outfit that charges a premium or additional 10% of the purse each time the horse goes over the 100G total purse winnings level. Another has the gaul to deduct from the a 10% fee of a claim which gets paid to the trainer! If they have a winning horse, they make more money in build in profit clauses of the purse in addition to their management fee. If the horse doesn't hit the board, owners are asked for cash calls! It's NO LOSE for these companies. We should start one up

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

At the end of the year, what would you estimate it cost you for WPTB?

I'm not sure...they are very expensive right now. When I joined them, they would look for 2 yo's in the 50-75 G range and mark them up to 100G. Now they purchase horses for say $100-300 grand and sells shares based on a value of $300-500G. On top of that they started charging monthly management fees for each horse. I left them in 2004. They started this upgraded business profile that same year.

One easy way of finding out the purchase price is to look online at the OBS/Keeneland/SAR sales sites. They list the purchase price (MOST of the times it's accurate...but they play games there too!). Then see what WPTB is selling the shares for!

They have to charge such high markups and fees because of national TV advertising TVG, and other additional national sales staff and PR people, web page management etc. But I always find them to be great guys, honest and very caring to their owner/investors.

[phystech]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

They have to charge such high markups and fees because of national TV advertising TVG, and other additional national sales staff and PR people, web page management etc. But I always find them to be great guys, honest and very caring to their owner/investors.

I wonder how they get around SEC regulations regarding their offerings?

Given they aren't just marketing something to a few of their closest friends, in essence, they are offering an investment to the whole world via the web, print and TV. SEC regs have to come into play there somewhere.

I thought about going global a few years ago and actually printed up about 10,000 fliers which I distributed at Pimlico on Black Eyed Susan Day and Preakness Day. Other than the fact that out of those 10,000 distributed, I got three emails and 5 hits on a web page I had set up, I backed off because my fears were raised about SEC intervention once I found out that the first partnership I was in had been investigated and fined by the AZ SEC.

Given that so many of the partnerships out there charge a management fee, I guess I was a real idiot - I never charged my partners a dime in management fees. I bought my shares in each horse just like everyone else did and made my money off my share of ownership, just like the rest did. We all made the same or lost the same, based on percentage of ownership.