Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

I like the splits best of all, a mile in 1:33 at BEL with Borel standing up, unreal. 1:34 in the Haskell. She is amazing.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

It's not everyday you see a horse equal a track record in a handride...

Or maidens go 108.3. I have your Sightseek photo. Will PM you.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

In your opinion, was Azeri better than all of those dreadful older horses that year ?

As far as what, who had a better year? Thats the question right, not who was better per say, but who had a better year?

[anamulla]

Let's do some poetry

..God created Dirt
..God Created Grass
..Man created Plastic
..I'm still believe in God..

[anamulla]

Let's do some poetry

..God created Dirt
..God created Grass
..Man created Plastic
..I'm still believe in God..

[philcski]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

In your opinion, was Azeri better than all of those dreadful older horses that year ?

Undoubtedly yes. Street Cry, Lido Palace, and Left Bank were all very good but get "incompletes". I was a big fan of Street Cry- he won the Dubai World Cup and the Stephen Foster that year, and had a chance to win HOY, but finished a mediocre 3rd in the Whitney. Left Bank beat him, and won Older Male, but he only ran 4 times with three wins (Bold Ruler, Tom Fool, and Whitney) and got buried in the Met Mile. I think that says a lot. Nobody really stepped forward and earned it. Milwaukee Brew didn't even make the ballot and I thought he deserved at least a chance, he won the SAH & Californian, and finished 3rd in the Pac Classic and BCC.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

So she was undoubtedly better.........but won HOY by default ?

OK.

Is this some kind of trick question???

She's the only female to win HOY while never facing the boys. She was definitely the best horse in America in 2002, regardless of sex, but could have easily lost the HOY vote if one of the males had done just a little more. If you haven't noticed... it's VERY hard for fillies/mares to win HOY. Not only do they have to be outstanding, but every male category has to be mediocre. This year is an exception because bar none, the two best horses in America are both female.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by gales0678

Zenyatta=s win over the colts
in the Breeders= Cup Classic actually got some ink, and
restored a modicum of respectability to our sport in the
wider public eye. She achieved more than even Rachel
did in that hugely important sphere--those Americans
who have only the mildest of interest in whether horse
racing continues to exist in this country or not.

the problem is that those with mild interest in the sport most likely don't know dirt from pro-ride or know very little about it

when you have the BC 2 years in a row on the pro-ride surface and not 1 dirt horse wins the results mean less , thus Zenyatta's win means less , she is a poly track specialist who ducked coming east this year to run on the dirt and faced no competetion to speak of this year .....simply put it would be a tradegy for horseracing if they give any horse , hoy , for winning only on the poly surface

Ducked coming east? You don't know the Moss' well. They had all the reservations and plans in to come to the Beldame if Rachel was going to be there. She ran her best on the oaklawn dirt. If there was a legit opportunity to duck it would have been the classic with EVERYTHING on the line. Both horses are great and will go down in history. You can make a case for each one or for splitting the trophy. I prefer the latter in view of their incredible contributions to the sport.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by sammy

Forget the surfaces. This is a no-brainer. R.A. is the better horse and she is H.O.Y. Period.

OH, well thanks for clearing this up!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Ducked coming east? You don't know the Moss' well. They had all the reservations and plans in to come to the Beldame if Rachel was going to be there. She ran her best on the oaklawn dirt. If there was a legit opportunity to duck it would have been the classic with EVERYTHING on the line. Both horses are great and will go down in history. You can make a case for each one or for splitting the trophy. I prefer the latter in view of their incredible contributions to the sport.

i find that very, very hard to believe considering their comments for most of the year that the bc was in cali, and they saw no reason to leave before that race in late fall.

the fact is that neither camp made much effort to face the other. the 'blame' lies on all their shoulders.

[Pedigree Ann]

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"Mr. Brown needs a history lesson.

Who needs a history lesson when we're talking about the present?

Are you telling me that the CCA Oaks, which has invariably drawn a 4-horse field in the last decade or so, is still the premiere race for 3yo fillies?

I think what is needed here is a NEWSFLASH...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Ducked coming east? You don't know the Moss' well. They had all the reservations and plans in to come to the Beldame if Rachel was going to be there. She ran her best on the oaklawn dirt. If there was a legit opportunity to duck it would have been the classic with EVERYTHING on the line. Both horses are great and will go down in history. You can make a case for each one or for splitting the trophy. I prefer the latter in view of their incredible contributions to the sport.

The sad part of that convenient cover story is that Zenyatta could have won HOY by coming out for the Beldame with or without Rachel Alexandra.

Assuming she won, she would have defeated multiple Grade 1 winner Music Note on regular dirt, would have won one of the top races for older fillies in this country (which would have given her a grand total of 2 counting the Vanity--the other two being prep races), would have had a chance to validate her trainer's assertions that she's "better" on dirt, and would have been able to claim a "coast to coast" campaign.

Another interesting question, had she run against Rachel Alexandra during the season, would her connections have still run her in the Classic?

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.

I remember the rain that day, but it stopped early and the track was listed as "fast" when bullsbay won the Alysheba two races before the Oaks was run.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.

This ain't 1973. The Kentucky Oaks is the #1 race for 3 year old fillies, end of story. The CCA Oaks has a much better chance of getting cancelled in the next decade than returning to prominence. And it wasn't sloppy...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.

this is really off the mark. regardless of what got graded when and how, you can't argue with the field that shows up for the ky oaks each year. it certainly seems more of a draw than the coaching club or alabama. history isn't something to ignore, but you can't ignore how things have changed in the modern era.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by sammy

Forget the surfaces. This is a no-brainer. R.A. is the better horse and she is H.O.Y. Period.

It's a no-brainer ... for people who are high on crack.

Granted, enough of the lemmings will likely vote for the Alexander filly to put her over the top for the HotY award … but there's no doubt as to which was the superior animal this year.


Does anyone actually believe that that 3yo filly could've held off the 5yo monster mare in a two-turn 9 or 10f affair on a fair dirt surface???

If so, you really need to step away from Jersey boy's bong for a while…

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

It's a no-brainer ... for people who are high on crack.

Granted, enough of the lemmings will likely vote for the Alexander filly to put her over the top for the HotY award … but there's no doubt as to which was the superior animal this year.


Does anyone actually believe that that 3yo filly could've held off the 5yo monster mare in a two-turn 9 or 10f affair on a fair dirt surface???

If so, you really need to step away from Jersey boy's bong for a while…

I don't understand why people just assume what would happen. A dirt surface would play more favorably to Rachel's running style, therefore she'd have a better chance. Not saying for sure she'd win, but it would be a close race.

People are letting their emotions get away with Zenyatta's Classic win. She's not invincible. Maybe she can run 112 beyers, but Rachel has proven herself capable of those numbers on a dirt track already.

[Smooth Operator]

When healthy horses are held out of world-class championship events we have no choice but to make assumptions, letswastemoney.


Unfortunately, despite her impressive achievements, RA never proved that she could handle a horse of Z's quality … or that she could stay the classic 10f distance.

Z was older and stronger and likely would've gotten to RA … even on a dry dirt surface, imo.

And I don't believe people are "letting their emotions get away" with Z. Her Classic was a powerful, impressive performance by any objective measure.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

When healthy horses are held out of world-class championship events we have no choice but to make assumptions, letswastemoney.


Unfortunately, despite her impressive achievements, RA never proved that she could handle a horse of Z's quality … or that she could stay the classic 10f distance.

Z was older and stronger and likely would've gotten to RA … even on a dry dirt surface, imo.

And I don't believe people are "letting their emotions get away" with Z. Her Classic was a powerful, impressive performance by any objective measure.

Wait, assumptions other than the one where her new owner said there was no way, no how, he was going to run her there? They were dodging nothing, they didn't want to run on a surface that is patently unkind to dirt horses...the classic type their star runner is.

And there is nothing to say Rachel wouldn't get 10f at all, which is a favorite trope of the Rachel bashers, but there's still little to even remotely think she couldn't get the distance.

Cue the Woodward with 9f scenarios infused into a 10f race responses.

It's really boring, for Christ's sake.