Jon White on the Best Horses of the last 50 years...

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Don't bother. Where does she rank if she lost by a head last out? Where does she rank if she loses to the usual drivel in the Hirsh or whatever soft spot the run in next? Here is a good way to measure the horses above, if any of them lost their last race would they plummet in the theoretical rankings like Zenyatta would?

Agree, completely.

Two words...

Anabaa's Creation.

That is all.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

no, if anything it makes you question Jon White and Davidowitz

[slotdirt]

Hasn't J. White been sort of discredited in so far as his opinion on the relatively ability of horses goes after the 2009 Triple Crown series?

[Thunder Gulch]

So they both choose to ignore "grass" horses that have impacted the sport for generations, but they make no such limitations on synthetic specialists? And while they exclude grass horses, where exactly does John Henry rank with just the dirt efforts?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

Pepper's Pride had 19 straight 1's and retired sound and undefeated.

Difficulty of schedule and quality of performance both matter a whole lot more to me than results. It's not hard to look visually impressive when you're going by pathetic horses like Dance to My Tune and Taptam in the late stages of a race. A Euro reject who really loves rubber tracks almost beat her despite racing for the first time off of a 3 month layoff and losing a shoe on the far turn in her most recent race.

Obviously Zenyatta would crush the hapless Pepper's Pride, but she's mostly stayed home and dined on cupcakes for much of her career. The few times she's really needed to deliver a somewhat respectable performance to win she has done it, and her trainer is the best out there at pointing for a goal and getting the peak effort.

I don't have a whole lot of respect for our turf horses and synthetic horses. They're junk in relation to whats in Europe and probably no better than a lot of countries where Americans hardly know racing even exists. Our dirt horses are almost always so wildly superior to other countries that it isn't even funny. Zenyatta, Nashoba's Key, Informed Decision, Ventura they are truly our all-time great rubber females. They are the four prettiest girls in the entire history of Camp Fat. To Zenyatta's credit, she's had two wins when she's left her fat camp stomping grounds ... the problem was neither performance was that inspiring and her competiton wasn't even close to being on par with the attached Grade 1 status.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Hasn't J. White been sort of discredited in so far as his opinion on the relatively ability of horses goes after the 2009 Triple Crown series?

who believes in any of this dribble anyway? some moron prints up one these lists and its supposed to be the holy grail of racing? its like some of these threads. "what was the best 5 defeats of male horses by a feamle since 2005" or some such crap. does it really matter? how does anyone know? were they out there running in the field? who crowns these so called "experts " with the authority to claim such crap? and furthurmore, who are the fools that read this stuff and buy into it? i hope they bet horses.....lol. #7 or #8 on the list is better than #4....even though #8 raced 45 year ago and died about 35 years ago. instead of handicapping and winning some money...i think i'll analyze this and waste my time, telling folks why #5 is better than #6...then people wonder why this guy sucks.....its hilarious to read and see people argue...but it makes no sense whatsoever!

[AeWingnut]

How can Zenyatta make the list while Cigar does not?
or for that matter Curlin?

Curlin gets to race on dirt he wins the BC Classic
Zenyatta doesn't race on plastic and she wins the Apple Blossum

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Oh for sure.
Affirmed had a good record but he got it by running against mules like Spectacular Bid, Alydar, Seattle Slew, Exceller, Sensitive Prince, etc. He couldn't have handled the horses Zenyatta has faced.

C'mon though. A healthy dose of delusion isn't all bad is it? I mean the cast of the Jersey Shore's gettin' paid on account of delusion.

PS. Speaking of which, if Snooki or the Situation presents the trophy at the Haskell, gag me with a spoon.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

What, no Colin? Sysonby? Domino? Salvator? Lexington? American Eclipse? Sir Archy? When you say "ever to have raced in this country", you are covering a lot of time and a lot of types of racing. I think this list covers only the "modern era", post-WWI, but even then, it is heavily weighted to the post-WWII era.

The article did say "in the last 50 years", for what it's worth.

It's still a laughable ranking for a horse that has largely faced nothing. Part of that isn't her fault- there isn't quality competition for her to face right now in ANY division. But in my humble opinion, you gain the level of "greatness" required to be on this type of list by facing, and beating, horses that are either on this list as well or would be under some consideration. If none of those are available, then dominance can be looked at as a proxy- and despite winning 17 in a row, only a few times has she been dominant on a Ruffian type level.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by philcski

If none of those are available, then dominance can be looked at as a proxy- and despite winning 17 in a row, only a few times has she been dominant on a Ruffian type level.

Workouts and dance move dominance do not count.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Don't bother. Where does she rank if she lost by a head last out? Where does she rank if she loses to the usual drivel in the Hirsh or whatever soft spot the run in next? Here is a good way to measure the horses above, if any of them lost their last race would they plummet in the theoretical rankings like Zenyatta would?

(emphasis added)

A very good observation, CS.

--Dunbar

[Indian Charlie]

No, because Zenyatta has done the undoable, win at the age of 6, so if she loses now, it's because she's raced till she is long in the tooth.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

P.S. - I was also shocked Pioneer of the Nile wasn't on here at least somewhere.

I thought he would have had him in top 5.