NBA is back (apparently)

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Lebron>Kobe all day.

KD>Lebron.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The thing that will always keep Kobe from the list of the greats like Jordan, Magic, Bird, and to a lesser extent James is that he doesn't adapt his game. It's always got to be his way. Back when they won their three-peat, he was complaining about the offense then. While winning titles. He's always been selfish but now he's disappointing. I remember Bird playing a game where McHale scored 56 points. I can't imagine Kobe every letting someone else have that kind of success. Those other guys, they would see what the team needed and try to give them that on that night. If Kareem wasn't playing, Magic might go for 15 boards or 40 points. If McHale wasn't playing, Bird might go for 45 or 20 boards. When Jordan lost his point guard, he played the position and put up seven straight triple-doubles and 10 in 11 games. James is often criticized for deferring but in most of the cases, analysts agree that it was the right basketball play. Kobe should have been able to see that Bynum had it going and couldn't be stopped and adapted accordingly. He refuses and it's sad.

Who's list is that? Many consider Kobe better than all of the guys you've named except for probably Jordan and there are some that think he is better than him as well. I don't think he is better than Jordan or Magic but I would take him over Bird or Lebron on most days.

In fairness, all of them saw/see the court much better than Kobe ever could. It always seems to me that when Kobe "decides" to pass, that is pretty much all he is going to do for that quarter or half. Its almost as if he has to force himself to do just that as opposed to it coming naturally and coming within the flow of an offense.

Kobe's lock down ability on the defensive end is tragically overlooked. None of those guys you named could play man to man defense like Kobe. Lebron, by virtue of his size, can cover front court players making him more versatile (yes, chuck, i said it) and Jordan played passing lanes better but none of those guys could contain a young Iverson at a time when he was virtually unstoppable.

[King Glorious]

Is this post meant to be a joke or are you being serious?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Is this post meant to be a joke or are you being serious?

Bird vs Kobe?

Defense? Kobe

Rebounding? Bird

Passing? Bird

Scoring? Kobe

Titles? Kobe

Yes, I was just joking.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Bird vs Kobe?

Defense? Kobe

Rebounding? Bird

Passing? Bird

Scoring? Kobe

Titles? Kobe

Yes, I was just joking.

I don't know that I'd readily concede that Kobe is a better scorer than Bird. He's scored more points yes but he's taken a lot more shots. Career scoring averages show Kobe at 25.4, Bird at 24.3 That's only one point.

Seasons averaging 20+ shots per game:
Kobe-11
Bird-4

Averaging 22+ shots:
Kobe-5
Bird-2

23+ shots:
Kobe-3
Bird-0

The most shots per game Bird ever averaged is 22.0 Kobe has passed that five times. Kobe has also averaged 3.8 three point attempts per game, twice as many as Bird's 1.9

Bird's career average is also 6.3 assists to Kobe's 4.7 Bird still has over 300 assists more than Kobe despite playing over 150 less games. Point being that Bird, if he wanted to be less selfish, could easily have scored more points. Instead of gunning up shots at will like Kobe, he was passing and rebounding. Sure, Kobe was a better on ball defender. I'll give him that. But I find it interesting that Bird has higher career averages in steals (1.7 to 1.5) and blocks (0.8 to 0.5) in addition to being the better defensive rebounder.

Bird had three rings. Kobe's got five. That's the only area that Kobe clearly outdistances Bird except for the fact that Bird only played nine good seasons before his back went out and he was never the same player.

I've asked this question of many people and I've never gotten an answer. In the three years where Kobe had to play without Shaq and before he got Gasol (2005, 2006, and 2007), what was the difference between Kobe and guys like Iverson and McGrady? They all scored a lot of points but their teams were average at best. At least Iverson took a sorry team to the finals. Kobe was just like McGrady. They missed the playoffs the first year then were knocked out in the first round two straight seasons, blowing a 3-1 lead one of the years. Kobe fans don't like to admit it but unless Kobe's played with an elite big man, he's done absolutely nothing teamwise. That is the truth.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I will say that LeBron will be considered one of the greats if he can win 2 championships. That's a big if though. He's got as much time on the court as Magic and Bird did when they were completing their championship runs. Wade is getting old too.

They have a 4 year window tops to hit at 50%. I don't see it happening.

So then I'm assuming that you also don't consider Oscar Robertson or Jerry West as all-time greats since they only have one title each right? West was almost 34 years old and in his 12th year. Robertson was 32 and in his 11th year. West didn't win until he got teamed with Chamberlain (who I will assume you think is an all-time great since he won two championships) and Robertson didn't get his until he teamed with Kareem.

Is this correct?

He's not an all-time great. I don't give a f.uck what you, Chuck, ESPN, God, Baby Jesus, etc say on the issue.



He's missing something. Comes off as a complete and total ******* and definitely won't be a successful businessman once his career his over.

Why are you comparing him to accomplished players? This f.ucking guy was called King James and The Chosen One for a reason. He hasn't delivered. No matter how many excuses you make for the guy. All he has done is win with bad teams and disappear when it matters.

I just hate the guy. The more you idiots try and prop him up the more I hate him. I see the fear in him. He's WEAK. All of the other guys you mentioned were men. Not adult babies.

He had no excuses last year. That was one of the biggest choke jobs in sports history. I'm going to pray that his stacked team years fail like they did with Malone and the Lakers, Barkley and the Rockets, etc. etc. Pi.ss on weak assholes winning titles by becoming betas.

Also look at the number of games played in a season and compare. LeBron is putting on mileage.

Like I said he has a 4 year window. Durant's not a b.itch. Good luck.

[dalakhani]

For a long time, being the eastern conference champ in the nba really wasn't much of an honor. Some very mediocre teams accomplished that feat.

For many years, simply making the playoffs was a tough in the west.

On another note, from 1987 until he retired, how did birds Boston teams do? I remember them going out in the first round against Charlotte. Say...how many years did bird play without parish, mchale or dj?

[GPK]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

For a long time, being the eastern conference champ in the nba really wasn't much of an honor. Some very mediocre teams accomplished that feat.

For many years, simply making the playoffs was a tough in the west.

On another note, from 1987 until he retired, how did birds Boston teams do? I remember them going out in the first round against Charlotte. Say...how many years did bird play without parish, mchale or dj?

That never happened.

Won 85-86 champ
86-87 season, lost in finals to Lakers
87-88 lost to Detriot in ECF
88-89 lost to Detroit in first round (Bird had heel surgery early in season and was out til after all star break)
89-90 lost to NY in first round after winning first 2 games
90-91 lost to Detroit in EC semis
91-92 lost in 7 games to Cavs in EC semis

Bird retired after that season.

[herkhorse]

Originally Posted by GPK

That never happened.

Won 85-86 champ
86-87 season, lost in finals to Lakers
87-88 lost to Detriot in ECF
88-89 lost to Detroit in first round (Bird had heel surgery early in season and was out til after all star break)
89-90 lost to NY in first round after winning first 2 games
90-91 lost to Detroit in EC semis
91-92 lost in 7 games to Cavs in EC semis

Bird retired after that season.

I still can't figure out how you're a Boston fan

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by herkhorse

I still can't figure out how you're a Boston fan

He was a huge ML Carr fan

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He was a huge ML Carr fan

I was a huge Sycamore fan.

[GPK]

Some of the highlights from this clip are amazing. When men were men. When the NBA was enjoyable and when the words "ball movement" meant something.


I still love the reaction from the players on the Atlanta Hawks bench at the 12:20 point in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZKWJ...eature=related

[herkhorse]

[AlreadyHome]

Best player on the Planet

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by GPK

That never happened.

Won 85-86 champ
86-87 season, lost in finals to Lakers
87-88 lost to Detriot in ECF
88-89 lost to Detroit in first round (Bird had heel surgery early in season and was out til after all star break)
89-90 lost to NY in first round after winning first 2 games
90-91 lost to Detroit in EC semis
91-92 lost in 7 games to Cavs in EC semis

Bird retired after that season.

You're right. It was the yr after he retired.

Regardless, that doesn't look like a very successful run and he had Parrish, mchale and dj not to mention a young Reggie Lewis at the end.

How can his career be viewed as any more successful than Kobe's?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

You're right. It was the yr after he retired.

Regardless, that doesn't look like a very successful run and he had Parrish, mchale and dj not to mention a young Reggie Lewis at the end.

How can his career be viewed as any more successful than Kobe's?

You do realize that Bird only played six games in 1989 and missed the playoffs right? You do remember that he had injured his back and was nowhere near the same player right? Those last four years, he played six, 75, 60, and 45 games. That's 186 of a possible 328. You do realize that the back was so bad that he missed the first round against Indiana in 1992 then missed the first three games against Cleveland in the second round and in the four games he played, he came off the bench in the first two (17 and 20 minutes) right?

From Wikipedia:

In 1988, Bird had the best statistical season of his career, but the Celtics failed to reach the NBA Finals for the first time in five years, losing to the Pistons in six games during the Eastern Conference Finals. Bird started the 1988–89 season with Boston, but ended his season after six games to have bone spurs surgically removed from both of his heels. He returned to the Celtics in 1989, but debilitating back problems and an aging Celtic roster prevented him from regaining his mid-1980s form. Nonetheless, through the final years of his career, Bird maintained his status as one of the premier players in the game. He averaged over 20 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists a game in his last three seasons with the Celtics, and shot better than 45% from the field in each. Bird led the Celtics to playoff appearances in each of those three seasons.
Bird's body, however, continued to break down. He had been bothered by back problems for years, and his back became progressively worse. After leading the Celtics to a 29–5 start to the 1990–91 season, he missed 22 games due to a compressed nerve root in his back, a condition that would eventually lead to his retirement. He had off-season surgery to remove a disc from his back, but his back problems continued and he missed 37 games during the 1991–92 season. His past glory would be briefly rekindled, however, in a game that season in which he scored 49 points in a double-overtime victory over the Portland Trail Blazers. During the 1992 Eastern Conference semi-finals against the Cleveland Cavaliers, Bird missed four of the seven games in the series due to those recurring back problems.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You do realize that Bird only played six games in 1989 and missed the playoffs right? You do remember that he had injured his back and was nowhere near the same player right? Those last four years, he played six, 75, 60, and 45 games. That's 186 of a possible 328. You do realize that the back was so bad that he missed the first round against Indiana in 1992 then missed the first three games against Cleveland in the second round and in the four games he played, he came off the bench in the first two (17 and 20 minutes) right?

From Wikipedia:

In 1988, Bird had the best statistical season of his career, but the Celtics failed to reach the NBA Finals for the first time in five years, losing to the Pistons in six games during the Eastern Conference Finals. Bird started the 1988–89 season with Boston, but ended his season after six games to have bone spurs surgically removed from both of his heels. He returned to the Celtics in 1989, but debilitating back problems and an aging Celtic roster prevented him from regaining his mid-1980s form. Nonetheless, through the final years of his career, Bird maintained his status as one of the premier players in the game. He averaged over 20 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists a game in his last three seasons with the Celtics, and shot better than 45% from the field in each. Bird led the Celtics to playoff appearances in each of those three seasons.
Bird's body, however, continued to break down. He had been bothered by back problems for years, and his back became progressively worse. After leading the Celtics to a 29–5 start to the 1990–91 season, he missed 22 games due to a compressed nerve root in his back, a condition that would eventually lead to his retirement. He had off-season surgery to remove a disc from his back, but his back problems continued and he missed 37 games during the 1991–92 season. His past glory would be briefly rekindled, however, in a game that season in which he scored 49 points in a double-overtime victory over the Portland Trail Blazers. During the 1992 Eastern Conference semi-finals against the Cleveland Cavaliers, Bird missed four of the seven games in the series due to those recurring back problems.

I know he had back problems and i know he had heel problems as well. And? A career is a career. You can't give "passes" because of injury because it suits your argument.

The fact is that Kobe won five championships, scored more points and was all defense 9 times.

None of these guys won without good teammates so i am failing to understand your point. When did Bird do anything without a supporting cast? Magic can at least say he made it to the finals with that 91 team which to me was a pretty big deal considering who he was playing with at the time AND who they had to beat to get there.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

KD>Lebron.

and then there are games like night's where Durant scores 30 and yet there is no doubt who the best player on the floor was.