Sudden Deaths in Southern Cal

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

What about the number of Pletcher horses? Not just deaths, but injuries also.

a wholly separate subject. has nothing to do with what is a very odd situation with baffert right now.
and your reaction is one of the things wrong with the sport. people who like a trainer don't want things to be true-but it doesn't make it untrue.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Yes I am aware that the fig is KAKA but there is a real fig and it does contain dead horses. Moreover I believe we should accept that horses die from training for and competing in horse races. What no one should accept or excuse is the abuse of horses. Simply not OK.. The fact that some will die while being given the finest of care and treatment is brutally acceptable.

Originally Posted by Kasept

Absolutely. Well put Fred.

Originally Posted by Danzig

you're exactly right. it's not always pretty, that's for sure. but it's the truth.

At the same time, there's a very disconcerting element to this particular situation.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Doug

In the human world we "overshoot" coumadin or warfarin doses all the time which is easily treated by Vit K or time, often the problem isn't the drug but whatever else is eaten with the meal which can either shorten or lengthen the half life of the drug since they all work by interfering with Vit K metabolism or the liver dependent coagulation factors.

Vitamin K is used in the body to form bones but also plays an important role in blood clotting. Coumadin works by interfering with the liver synthesis of vitamin K-dependent clotting factors. Vit K decreases the amount of blood clots formed in the body the opposite of what your drugs in the article do.

In humans we use these meds to stop clotting for a bunch of reasons such as stroke prevention or avoiding clot associated with abnormal heart rythmns but yes these are the same class and effect of drugs.

Would diphacinone interfere with the liver as well? TAP had a liver issue going with a few horses a couple years ago that a cause was never really determined, if I remember.

This is from the studyon E X T O X N E T. Interesting that it would be fed to animals to keep bats away...

"Fate in humans and animals: Rats eliminated 70% of the administered oral dose via the feces and 10% in the urine within 8 days [172]. A similar pattern of elimination occurred in mice [172]. Animal studies indicate that little metabolism takes place, and that diphacinone which is not eliminated may concentrate to varying degrees in the liver, kidneys, and lungs [8,172]. The half-life of diphacinone in humans is 15 to 20 days [8]. It was determined that cattle dosed with the compound as an anti-bat measure were safe to use for dairy and/or meat production [8]."

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

At the same time, there's a very disconcerting element to this particular situation.

yes, there is. i just finished reading the times article. to have so many in one area, and so many from one trainer to boot, is very strange. of course it's going to raise a lot of eyebrows. hopefully they can get answers. and if someone(s) is doing something wrong, i hope they are never able to do such a thing again.

why would blood thinning be something you'd want? is it a way to mask something else? would that affect metabolism levels?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Doug

In the human world we "overshoot" coumadin or warfarin doses all the time which is easily treated by Vit K or time, often the problem isn't the drug but whatever else is eaten with the meal which can either shorten or lengthen the half life of the drug since they all work by interfering with Vit K metabolism or the liver dependent coagulation factors.Vitamin K is used in the body to form bones but also plays an important role in blood clotting. Coumadin works by interfering with the liver synthesis of vitamin K-dependent clotting factors. Vit K decreases the amount of blood clots formed in the body the opposite of what your drugs in the article do.

In humans we use these meds to stop clotting for a bunch of reasons such as stroke prevention or avoiding clot associated with abnormal heart rythmns but yes these are the same class and effect of drugs.

what else would be affected? would it affect overall metabolism? would there be anything beneficial from using blood thinners for someone/thing in high activity?

[Danzig]

i did a search on blood thinners as performance enhancers, and i found this:

"Blood Viscosity
Like anything else, the thicker blood is, the slower it moves through the body. So anything that reduces the viscosity of blood is going to make it easier for the heart to get a full charge, faster for the heart to eject and quicker to deliver oxygen and remove heat, lactic acid and CO2. On a microscopic scale, at the entrance to capillaries, red blood cells tend to stack up like a traffic jam. This can reduce oxygen delivery. Thinning the blood a little can break up these traffic jams and improve flow. Red blood cells are less sticky when blood is thinned so you get more flowing through capillaries and delivering oxygen.

Secret Weapon #2 - Salycin
Although there are a number things you can take that reduce the viscosity of blood, the one we like best is a natural extract of willow bark called Salycin. As you may have guessed, it is related to Asprin (acetyl-salycilic acid). All blood thinners work about the same, by reducing cell-to-cell stickiness. Salycin is nice because you get all the performance enhancement without the risks inherent in more aggressive blood thinners. "

[jocko699]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

What about the number of Pletcher horses? Not just deaths, but injuries also.

Only talking about Baffert here, Pletcher is another story.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What does that have to do with Baffert?

Nothing at all. That doesn’t make it irrelevant though. Look at Todd just this last week. A champion and a Grade 1 winner this year. Both out extended periods of time with injuries. Would anyone be surprised if we don’t see either horse ever again?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Danzig

a wholly separate subject. has nothing to do with what is a very odd situation with baffert right now.
and your reaction is one of the things wrong with the sport. people who like a trainer don't want things to be true-but it doesn't make it untrue.

Your right. I like Baffert, I defend him. Some of the things I have read recently do bother me, regarding Bob.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Nothing at all. That doesn’t make it irrelevant though. Look at Todd just this last week. A champion and a Grade 1 winner this year. Both out extended periods of time with injuries. Would anyone be surprised if we don’t see either horse ever again?

Who said it was irrelevant? People have been talking about your point for a long time. Where have you been?

It has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is your man crush.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Nothing at all. That doesn’t make it irrelevant though. Look at Todd just this last week. A champion and a Grade 1 winner this year. Both out extended periods of time with injuries. Would anyone be surprised if we don’t see either horse ever again?

If we didn't it would be more of a reflection of the value of the horses as breeding stock than because they are trained by Pletcher.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Your right. I like Baffert, I defend him. Some of the things I have read recently do bother me, regarding Bob.

why would you defend someone you don't even know? you don't know what he's doing-why would you go out on that limb?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

If we didn't it would be more of a reflection of the value of the horses as breeding stock than because they are trained by Pletcher.

i wonder if he gets shares in all these horses-if so, i wonder if he's better off trying to bring them back from an injury or in being involved with them as a stud. i don't know if pletcher's is in the news more for a horse doing well, or a horse getting hurt/sick.

[Danzig]

paulick report has a new article, which says the CHRB says there has been no 'spike' in deaths:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...equine-deaths/

one, i still have questions.
two, i doubt joe drape runs an article to update readers about the statistics.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i doubt joe drape runs an article to update readers about the statistics.

Oh I'm sure that's accurate, as I doubt he cares what the real statistics are. If he gets a number that sounds bad, it's probably true as far as he's concerned. The idea of a legitimate investigation into horse racing is just not gonna cross anybody's desk at the NY Times. When they run with the inevitable things that Joe Drape puts out, it causes people to circle the wagons when really we ought to both be on the same side, rooting out the problems. If they made less of a mess of things from a "journalistic" standpoint, making almost everyone look like villains, we might actually be able to get somewhere with transparency in the media.