Problems with Hollywood park's new track?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

thing is, turfway had to have the poly people come back in and do a lot of work after the first racing season. now woodbine with the cold. so what happens in cali when the temp soars? guess we'll see.
people rushed to hollywood because it was felt the cushion would be better than the typical trick out there. maybe it is, but i don't think it's working the miracle that so many thought it would. it has its own issues. and i don't think smack dab in the middle of their season is when they should be trying to figure this out.

Do you even watch these races at Hwd? Do you see a bias going on here? I sure don't.I just saw David Flores steal a race by a neck,and earlier I saw Top This N That come off the pace.I think it is a fair track,and if people think it hurts speed,it is probably because speed has a bias in it's favor on these other tracks(not because there is a bias against speed on this cushion track.)As far as I'm concerned,I am all for this stuff.Yes,they have to get used to taking care of it,but I am not seeing the inside/outside unfair/uncappable b.s. that occurs on dirt.So,bitch all you want,but it is staying.Anita concrete comes in late December,and I am sure the speed trainers(Baffert n' Headley) will win at a 30-50% clip.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I know Mike doesn't like the synthetic tracks.I don't hold that against him,because he is a track bias player.He bets horses this way,and as he has said, he feels pretty much lost on a fair track,and I would hate it too.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Rupert,
Sit down cause I'm going tell you something, and I don't want you to fall down if you're standing up.
I agree with you.
Yes, I'll say it again, I agree with you.
That said, and I'm sure Mike and others will chime in, does anyone besides me see that poly plays differently at different tracks, in different climates?
Where it's cold (frosted) like Woodbine, it seperates.
Keenland is finer.
Hollywood, I honestly don't know much.
Sure, I'm all for the safety of the horses, but haven't some been hurt on it anyway?
Just my two pennies...poly in one place is comething completely different in other places.
DTS

Hollywood is a different surface from Keeneland. The track at Hollywood is made by a totally different company. Hollywood uses Cushion-track while Kenneland uses Poly-track, so there will obviously be a big difference between the two. I don't know all the ingredients of the two tracks, but I think the two tracks have different ingredients. They have many of the same ingredients but I don't think they are all the same.

There is even a third company that makes their own unique surface. Michael Dickinson's surface is going to be used at one of the tracks in Northern California. So you have the Dickinson surface, polytrack, and cushiontrack, all of which are different. Not only that, there will even be differences in tracks made by the same company, depending on the climate where they are installed.

[ArlJim78]

Playing synthetic tracks more and more often I have found that I'm getting used to the tracks playing more evenly and when i look at AQU for example it really stands out even more how biased it is. I find the racing less exciting on the pure speed favoring tracks.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Hollywood is a different surface from Keeneland. The track at Hollywood is made by a totally different company. Hollywood uses Cushion-track while Kenneland uses Poly-track, so there will obviously be a big difference between the two. I don't know all the ingredients of the two tracks, but I think the two tracks have different ingredients. They have many of the same ingredients but I don't think they are all the same.

There is even a third company that makes their own unique surface. Michael Dickinson's surface is going to be used at one of the tracks in Northern California. So you have the Dickinson surface, polytrack, and cushiontrack, all of which are different. Not only that, there will even be differences in tracks made by the same company, depending on the climate where they are installed.

Thanks for that.
Climate is the big factor IMHO.
All of us want to see horse run uninjured. The point I was attempting to make, that you explained, is that this surface isn't "equal" everywhere.
Some folks were sold a lot of promises.
Then came the problems.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Playing synthetic tracks more and more often I have found that I'm getting used to the tracks playing more evenly and when i look at AQU for example it really stands out even more how biased it is. I find the racing less exciting on the pure speed favoring tracks.

The track that we saw today at Aqueduct is actually somewhat of a synthetic surface. I don't know the ingredients of the inner-dirt track at Aqueduct, but I know that it is a weatherized surface that can withstand extreme cold. It's not similar to polytrack, but I think it is still considered somewhat of an artificial surface. Some horses don't like the inner-dirt track at all. Others love it. It's a totally different surface from the other surfaces in New York, including the main track at Aqueduct.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The track that we saw today at Aqueduct is actually somewhat of a synthetic surface. I don't know the ingredients of the inner-dirt track at Aqueduct, but I know that it is a weatherized surface that can withstand extreme cold. It's not similar to polytrack, but I think it is still considered somewhat of an artificial surface. Some horses don't like the inner-dirt track at all. Others love it. It's a totally different surface from the other surfaces in New York, including the main track at Aqueduct.

It is a speed favoring track, that was my point.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Thanks for that.
Climate is the big factor IMHO.
All of us want to see horse run uninjured. The point I was attempting to make, that you explained, is that this surface isn't "equal" everywhere.
Some folks were sold a lot of promises.
Then came the problems.

I don't think that anyone thought that these artifical surfaces were a cure-all. We just thought that these surfaces were much safer than what we had before, and we believed that horses would stay much sounder. So far, so good. The horses are staying much sounder.

[SentToStud]

I thiught this was interesting. Polytrack's PowerPoint presentation to the CHRB....

http://polytrack.com/presentation/index.html

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Do you even watch these races at Hwd? Do you see a bias going on here? I sure don't.I just saw David Flores steal a race by a neck,and earlier I saw Top This N That come off the pace.I think it is a fair track,and if people think it hurts speed,it is probably because speed has a bias in it's favor on these other tracks(not because there is a bias against speed on this cushion track.)As far as I'm concerned,I am all for this stuff.Yes,they have to get used to taking care of it,but I am not seeing the inside/outside unfair/uncappable b.s. that occurs on dirt.So,bitch all you want,but it is staying.Anita concrete comes in late December,and I am sure the speed trainers(Baffert n' Headley) will win at a 30-50% clip.

i wasn't referring to bias in regards to the shape of the poly tracks. i'm not bitching about the bias, i'm just surprised at all the maintenance issues regarding a multi-million dollar surface that was billed as maintenance free.

but if anyone would know about bias-bitching, i guess you'd recognize it for sure.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i wasn't referring to bias in regards to the shape of the poly tracks. i'm not bitching about the bias, i'm just surprised at all the maintenance issues regarding a multi-million dollar surface that was billed as maintenance free.

but if anyone would know about bias-bitching, i guess you'd recognize it for sure.

Well,the jocks at Hollywood think the maintenance crew should stop bringing the heavy equipment out all the time.They don't think it needs it.The jocks here all love this surface.If anybody hears one say they like dirt better than the cushion,then I would like to know about it.Just last night,Mig said he loves the way horses feel when they are on it.I know the track is more fair than dirt is.I don't like btchn about biases,and the best way to get rid of biases is to use this stuff.This surface is the most fair I have ever seen.Horses came from various places to win at HWD today.A horse got away on the front end in the 7th,but QLM came from last to win the next race.People who try to race on it without working over it are in trouble though.A guy came and tried that with a horse from Turf Paradise today.The horse never had even seen the track.Just came over from Phoenix.Horse got pulled up.If your a trainer that trains for speed,you're obviously not gunna like your advantage to be taken away.Stay at Anita.Same for gamblers that love to bet horses who were hurt/helped by biases.They will hate a synthetic track,because they won't have these daily biases to help them make money.

[repent]

I remember Oracle's post on the ESPN board after Vindication was announced to be off the KY Derby trail for one of his 5000 injuries.

went something like
I told you soI told you soI told you soI told you soI told you soI told you soI told you soI told you so............................

seems applicable again on this subject.

this stuff is dangerous and a maintenence logistical nightmare.
well done Hollypark.
hopefully they will at least get a big "thank you" card from Santa Anita for showing them what not to do.



Repent

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Todd Pletcher's barn had the horse come up lame after thier work this morning.

It was Circle the World and, sadly, he was euthanized.....

Originally Posted by georgewashington

The problem is human error taking care of the surface. The surface is working. Injuries are way down. The surface they put in is not as good as poly though, but that is coming from somebody that is partial to KY, not CA.

So far the number of injuries is way down," Panza said. "The first seven to eight weeks of training it was staggering how few injuries we had. Then as we got horses with physical issues from other tracks, the numbers picked up, but they are nowhere comparable to last year or previous years. This time last year I had 1,100 horses stabled here; this year there are 1,800.

Tell that to Pletcher and Tabor who lost a wonderful animal yesterday morning. I'm sure they are thrilled about it.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I know Mike doesn't like the synthetic tracks.I don't hold that against him,because he is a track bias player.He bets horses this way,and as he has said, he feels pretty much lost on a fair track,and I would hate it too.

Scuds,
In what i do, its my job to identify talent.
I'm not a professional gambler, I think that day to day gambling has become vey difficult with the mass marketed sheets, selling of clocker info, and all the info that is available in the DRF for five bucks. In the days of my youth, in the 80's and early to mid 90's guys who kept track of tariner switches(which were NOT listed in the DRF), breeding(which was NOT listed in the DRF), trainer stats(which were NOT listed in the DRF), biases(which nobody reported in the DRF or elsewhere as well as bad trips), and using sheets(which used to be used by a small number of guys instead of mass marketed), I remember when they were the key to the vault.
Not anymore. Other than some pik-6 scores this year with Lans and a pair of huge hits on BC Day and Derby day(huge overpayments in comparison to what they would have paid on a "regular" racing day without the pumped up handle, do you really think Barbaro over BC over Step would pay 11,500 on a regular racing day? Try 3 grand maybe) I find it hard to win consistently anyplace.
Beyer and Crist and Litfin are dead right as far as i can see. Playesr used to be able to grind away day afetr day and make a few bucks consistenty if they were sharp. Now its more like a few big scores a year have to make a you a winner, and its nowhere near as fun as it used to be in the old days.

I have no problem passing the poly/cushion tracks and not in one post, NOT ONE!! have you heard me complain that I blew a bet on this stuff. Its because I'm not playing it.
But when I see clearly superior horses getting trounced by gerbils, yeah i have a problem with that.
As far as your contention that these surfaces play unbiased? Are you ****ing serious? try telling that to anyone who ran a horse at keeneland who had speed, see if they think these tracks are "fair".
I like to see talent rewarded, and I don't see how a clearly inferior filly to the runner up staggering home ahead of the other staggerers proves anything other than she destested it a little less than the others.
Do you really think that Belgravia could beat Notional on the dirt? Even come within the same area code?
The days will be upon us next year when trainers and owners begin shipping horses with dirt talent out of town and away to dirt tracks.
It won't happen yet, because SA will be racing on dirt(can't start soon enough for me!!!!!!!) and guys will stick around with cushion failures to race on dirt there.
But follow the trends, Cali trainers are already setting up shop in the east with a division of runners, and I hear more are going to happen.
Those are trainers planning for the future Scuds, they know owners will grow tired fast of horses who have ability and aren't putting out on synthetic surfaces who cost a bundle losing and that they will ship these horses East. They don't wanna lose these horses in the future and will open these cross country divisions so that if a talented horse won't put out on it, that they won't lose the horse to another East Coast trainer, they can simply move it to the other division they have with a dirt track.

[jpops757]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Hollywood is a different surface from Keeneland. The track at Hollywood is made by a totally different company. Hollywood uses Cushion-track while Kenneland uses Poly-track, so there will obviously be a big difference between the two. I don't know all the ingredients of the two tracks, but I think the two tracks have different ingredients. They have many of the same ingredients but I don't think they are all the same.

There is even a third company that makes their own unique surface. Michael Dickinson's surface is going to be used at one of the tracks in Northern California. So you have the Dickinson surface, polytrack, and cushiontrack, all of which are different. Not only that, there will even be differences in tracks made by the same company, depending on the climate where they are installed.

Wonder if it makes a differance if yous Firestone or Goodyear tires?

Originally Posted by jpops757

Wonder if it makes a differance if yous Firestone or Goodyear tires?

Quick Little Miss likes Firestones.
Imagine a rematch of the top two on dirt? How many ****ing lengths do you think Jump On In would win by?
How about a Notional-belgravia dirt rematch? Wanna tell me whos favored in that one?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Mike,horses are going wire to wire on the cushion.Some are winning from just off the pace,and some are coming from well off the pace.This particular surface is going to play fair most of the time.It is right now playing fair most of the time.Some dirt tracks favor speed.Everybody is so used to it that they think a surface like the cushion is biased against speed.It isn't.The dirt is biased for speed,and against raters.Yes,Keeneland was biased against speed in the 1st part of the meet.They can make changes to get it more fair.I am sure they will do that.Horses are wiring fields on the CUSHION.We don't know why Notional stopped.Maybe he has a bleeding problem ,or an injury.Maybe he needs the harder speed biased surface to run his best race.Dilemma ran great at both tracks.Again,I think if there is an unfair surface, it is the concrete that Baffert and Headley rely on.Oneil is happy with the cushion track,and obviously thought Notional liked it.Some horses are gunna need that concrete to run their best.He may be one.I don't know.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Mike,horses are going wire to wire on the cushion.Some are winning from just off the pace,and some are coming from well off the pace.This particular surface is going to play fair most of the time.It is right now playing fair most of the time.Some dirt tracks favor speed.Everybody is so used to it that they think a surface like the cushion is biased against speed.It isn't.The dirt is biased for speed,and against raters.Yes,Keeneland was biased against speed in the 1st part of the meet.They can make changes to get it more fair.I am sure they will do that.Horses are wiring fields on the CUSHION.We don't know why Notional stopped.Maybe he has a bleeding problem ,or an injury.Maybe he needs the harder speed biased surface to run his best race.Dilemma ran great at both tracks.Again,I think if there is an unfair surface, it is the concrete that Baffert and Headley rely on.Oneil is happy with the cushion track,and obviously thought Notional liked it.Some horses are gunna need that concrete to run their best.He may be one.I don't know.

Scuds, I have yet tohear from anyone that their horses don't train well on it.
What i do hear is that they train great and then don't run a step on it during the race.
Jump On In TRAINED FASTER on it than she RAN ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
She has so much more ability than Quick that it aint funny.
You cashed a bet, props. But I will pose the question again, you win a contest and you can choose which filly's earnings you get from here on out, which filly do you take?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

It amazes me that you think trainers would run horses on the cushion if they thought they didn't like it.I haven't heard that comment from trainers."She doesn't like it as much as the dirt,but we are gunna see if she can overcome it." Who is saying that? You are saying it.You are assuming horses don't like it (after they get beat.) They like it,but they might need the advantage of the concrete to get their speed to last.Which track has horses winning from different parts of the field routinely? The cushion.Anita is the one where one part of the field often wins most of the races.