Obama - good for Americans

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

it's ugly.

i like mccain. i cast a meaningless vote for him the 2000 california primary well after bush had locked up the nomination.

i think this is the price we pay as a nation for the lee atwater/karl rove lie to the easily deceived style of politics.

the fact that it's going to turn around and cost them a few more senate, house and state legislative seats does give me a nice sense of schadenfreude. i admit to that character flaw.

i try not to think about how different things could be if mccain hadn't been smeared in s carolina. or if people weren't so f'in stupid they buy crap like mccain had a black child out of wedlock or obama was a muslim.

i despair for a country where the short term political benefit of such lies makes smart people tell them to idiotic sheep.

Unfortunately it is like that pretty much everywhere where you actually have a vote

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ok.
I will try.

1. He will bring in the best advisors he possilby can. Obama has proclaimed he will not put "friends" in high places, just the best people he can find, including Republicans.

2. He is a natural leader. I believe he really believes he can make a difference. I dont believe this is just an ego trip. The job is way too tough for that. The guy has shown a penchant most for turning down bucks and actually trying to aid in public service. I really think he wants to be a public servant.

3. He is the most likely Democrat to bridge the difference between the parties. I dont think Hillary (given her hubby and the past) could be as effective at trying to make things better in this realm. The Republicans have had 8 years. It may have been very bad timing, but in this time things have not gone well. And yes change, just for the sake of change, can be good. I thought this was part of the idea of having term limits.

4. Obama has a history of being very pragmatic. If a consensus and logic convinces him that deep tax hikes on large companies would not be good, he will not do it. His history indicates he tries very hard to seek a consensus and does not really rely on his gut instincts to do things. He apparently is a very good listener. And he wants a variety of opinions, imo. I do not think he is bullheaded and inflexible.

As far as the real issues.
1. Obama will not be able to fix Health care. No one will in 4 years.
2. He will probably continue the same sort of policy as Bush in Iraq with the exception of trying to move more troops out of Iraq and into Afghanistan with rapidity. He will be told he cannot just pull out of Iraq. He knows this.
3. The economy I dont believe can really be turned by any single President quickly. So what McCain proposes v. what Obama proposes will not make a huge difference in the short run.

And here is what I believe to be the sad part: If he was actually beaten by McCain at this point (ie being significantly ahead; no modern day president has lost with this much of a lead in the polls), it would be interpreted by many to be America just could not handle a black guy being president. Look how many lied to the pollsters. Right or wrong, it would create a great deal of suspicion.

The goal of both candidates right now is to get elected. What they present to the masses will not dictate what they will actually be required to do when if office. Obama will piss off a good number of liberal Democrats just like McCain would have with Republicans.

Way too much crapola.
Sorry Morty and Pants if ... nah they wont read it thru
as most will not.
I dont blame em.

i agree with most of this except the part where i don't get credit for thinking it through that clearly.

Originally Posted by geeker2

Thanks pgardn ... that was a good post

You are welcome.

It is poorly written. As is my way.
But this is basically what I believe to be true.

I really think both men are pragmatic and much
better choices than most people give them credit for.
I also have a bad habit as somewhat of an optimist
which is easily ridiculed with cynicism.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

When she visits be sure to grind her body parts up and feed them to sumwonlovesu.

LOL

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GPK

I'm game for that.




































How bout them 'Skins

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

at this point, i think it's a falsehood that either party doesn't believe in big govt. too many now look at the party and want to know what it's done for them. then there's the states having shuffled most of their responsibilities onto the feds as well.

I agree with Zig. Both parties don't seem to mind spending tax dollars.
As for the states, they're shuffling their responsibilities to the feds and local municipalitites. (medicaid, anyone?)

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

those three points you made? that's what he'll do? well, whoopie. i don't care how good a speaker is-actions speak louder than any words; he can't lower taxes unless congress sends him a bill to lower taxes, and the war will end whether he gets in there or not.
and the middle class might be happy with a tax break, but when the businesses they work for leave on the same track as those who have gone before, to cheaper labor south of the border for instance, it won't do those folks much good. raising corporate taxes is not a way to grow the economy, to create jobs...it will however temporarily raise the amount of spending that obama has promised. the 'evil' businesses we all either work for or operate pay a lot already-much of their employees health care, they equal the amount taken out in social security benefits, pay workers comp and unemployment insurance, etc. and now a tax increase on the people who pay all our wages. you really think the owners, stockholders, top execs are going to take a hit to pay for that loss? hell no. that will trickle down to the workers as well. two things happen when a business sees less on the bottom line. what can we cut, what prices can we raise? it's never, gee, i guess i'll take a hit on my income so my workers still get their due.

Zig for Prez!

[TheSpyder]

Anyone see McCain's stump speech yesterday? He was excellent, drawing emotion, courage, and hope. If he'd been talking like that he would be easily in the lead. It was like the Cleveland Browns yesterday pulling some great stuff out of no where.

Why didn't he talk like that before? These guys that coach McCain have cost him the election...or maybe he makes a fast closing move..

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

why is "he isn't bush" good enough?

i know it violates geek's completely artificial rules but when most of the country is voting democratic because the republicans hitched their wagon to a punchline the last 8 years, why do the rest of us need to explain things further?

we're electing a black guy. that's not because we're such an advanced society. and we could have elected a chick. that's how bad you f'd up.

stop lining up behind retards for most of a decade and deserving people like mccain won't get swamped.

This post hit the nail on the head. Bush really sucked and he's not a republican in my mind. Bush will singlehandely cost McCain the presidency.

[Mortimer]

.....I..sometimes won-der whyyy...all the flow-ers have to diiiie.....

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Which is the more entertaining bunch? The skinny white trash mama that keeps getting in front of the camera in Ohio is the definite star.

Pennsylvania White Trash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us&NR=1

Ohio White Trash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

those three points you made? that's what he'll do? well, whoopie. i don't care how good a speaker is-actions speak louder than any words; he can't lower taxes unless congress sends him a bill to lower taxes, and the war will end whether he gets in there or not.
and the middle class might be happy with a tax break, but when the businesses they work for leave on the same track as those who have gone before, to cheaper labor south of the border for instance, it won't do those folks much good. raising corporate taxes is not a way to grow the economy, to create jobs...it will however temporarily raise the amount of spending that obama has promised. the 'evil' businesses we all either work for or operate pay a lot already-much of their employees health care, they equal the amount taken out in social security benefits, pay workers comp and unemployment insurance, etc. and now a tax increase on the people who pay all our wages. you really think the owners, stockholders, top execs are going to take a hit to pay for that loss? hell no. that will trickle down to the workers as well. two things happen when a business sees less on the bottom line. what can we cut, what prices can we raise? it's never, gee, i guess i'll take a hit on my income so my workers still get their due.

You are such a Republican(just accept it.) This masquerading is embarassing to watch. "I love guns, hunting, and big business. However, I am not a Republican. I'm Independent." Why are you so against just accepting you are a Republican? It's amazing the lengths people will go to try to make themselves stick out from the crowd. Everything I have ever seen you write about economics has been in support of having just 2 classes of people.

hey scuds do you live with your parents?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

hey scuds do you live with your parents?

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them comes to live with me someday. I want to talk to my dad, and he usually can't hear me. I don't want to talk to my mom, and she hears everything.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

You are such a Republican(just accept it.) This masquerading is embarassing to watch. "I love guns, hunting, and big business. However, I am not a Republican. I'm Independent." Why are you so against just accepting you are a Republican? It's amazing the lengths people will go to try to make themselves stick out from the crowd. Everything I have ever seen you write about economics has been in support of having just 2 classes of people.

yawn

i'm sure i'd be accepted by them. as soon as i said i was pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, i'd imagine i'd be shown the door.


edit~instead of attacking me, why don't you just explain what i've got wrong about what i wrote, and what the truth is about small businesses, corporations, and the taxes they pay?
naaah, won't happen. so much easier to attack the messenger.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

yawn

i'm sure i'd be accepted by them. as soon as i said i was pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, i'd imagine i'd be shown the door.


edit~instead of attacking me, why don't you just explain what i've got wrong about what i wrote, and what the truth is about small businesses, corporations, and the taxes they pay?
naaah, won't happen. so much easier to attack the messenger.

I'm not attacking what you said. I'm just saying it's Republican. I can't change your views. I'm just saying you're a Republican. I think your views are in line with Log Cabin Republicans.

[TheSpyder]

I like reefer, Bob Marley, and the outdoors, but I have voted Republican in the past. Am I not an Independant or just too stoned to realize what I am doing?


I figure since you are the party Chuch Lady you can tell me.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

You are such a Republican(just accept it.) This masquerading is embarassing to watch. "I love guns, hunting, and big business. However, I am not a Republican. I'm Independent." Why are you so against just accepting you are a Republican? It's amazing the lengths people will go to try to make themselves stick out from the crowd. Everything I have ever seen you write about economics has been in support of having just 2 classes of people.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I'm not attacking what you said. I'm just saying it's Republican. I can't change your views. I'm just saying you're a Republican. I think your views are in line with Log Cabin Republicans.

i don't know much about 'blue dog' dems, but i know they're supposed to be fiscally conservative. does that mean they're closet republicans?

i just want to know how, if you make it harder for businesses to meet what they've set as their bottom line, it's a good thing? i work for a business, i help do the budgets. i know what the margins are, and i know what the profits are. i also know that the owner has his idea of what he should make. if the cost of doing business rises, i also know it's not him who will be cut back. now, it's all well and good to say that corporations make a lot of money, and need to pay their fair share. but i think it's ignoring reality to think that the ceo, the cfo, or the vp's, stockholders or owners are the ones who are going to take the hit when the bottom line looks like it will be lowered. prices will go up for their goods and services, or the amount of employees will be lowered. but stockholders will get their share, and the fat cats will still get fed. so, how does any of that help the middle class?

my concern when i ask these questions is not showing concern for the rich. i'm concerned for myself, and my co-workers and others just like them.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I like reefer, Bob Marley, and the outdoors, but I have voted Republican in the past. Am I not an Independant or just too stoned to realize what I am doing?


I figure since you are the party Chuch Lady you can tell me.

Read what she wrote about economics above. If you believe that, then you're a Republican. If you believe what she wrote, and you also think everyone should get their own damn fire department, then you're a Libertarian. I think it's economic views that really describe where people fall politically. The Social Values stuff (ABORTION etc, ) is secondary. I don't think many Democrats would believe what she wrote about economics, but many would be against abortion n' gay anything(a lot of Catholics are in this zone...actually the Catholic Church Teachings are that of a Democrat who is against abortion n' gay anything.)

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't know much about 'blue dog' dems, but i know they're supposed to be fiscally conservative. does that mean they're closet republicans?

i just want to know how, if you make it harder for businesses to meet what they've set as their bottom line, it's a good thing? i work for a business, i help do the budgets. i know what the margins are, and i know what the profits are. i also know that the owner has his idea of what he should make. if the cost of doing business rises, i also know it's not him who will be cut back. now, it's all well and good to say that corporations make a lot of money, and need to pay their fair share. but i think it's ignoring reality to think that the ceo, the cfo, or the vp's, stockholders or owners are the ones who are going to take the hit when the bottom line looks like it will be lowered. prices will go up for their goods and services, or the amount of employees will be lowered. but stockholders will get their share, and the fat cats will still get fed. so, how does any of that help the middle class?

my concern when i ask these questions is not showing concern for the rich. i'm concerned for myself, and my co-workers and others just like them.

Blue Dog Democrats don't believe what you wrote about economics. That's about all they disagree with Republicans on. They favor a 3 class society, and Republicans favor just a 2 class society.