The Dedgradation of the American Dialogue

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Riot

Not really, not any more. This isn't 10 years ago. Very few scientists with any national standing or international standing say it doesn't exist anymore. The overwhelming consensus is that it's very real, it's here, and it's happening far faster than we thought. The question is how much man can influence it or attenuate it. Go to nationalgeographic.com and enter "global warming", they've had some good articles with all sides discussed.

I think it is very possible global warming is occurring. There is no proof however that any of it is man made. There will never be any proof of that. Our ability to gather weather observations is vastly superior to 100 years ago and even 30 years ago. Regardless, there is proof of vast global cooling and warming long, long before human CO2 emissions. I'm pretty sure the last ice age came and went without any human assistance whatsoever.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

Not really, not any more. This isn't 10 years ago. Very few scientists with any national standing or international standing say it doesn't exist anymore. The overwhelming consensus is that it's very real, it's here, and it's happening far faster than we thought. The question is how much man can influence it or attenuate it. Go to nationalgeographic.com and enter "global warming", they've had some good articles with all sides discussed.

Really?

“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

“Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly….As a scientist I remain skeptical.” - Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a PhD in meteorology and formerly of NASA who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called “among the most preeminent scientists of the last 100 years.”

Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.” - UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists,” - Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

“The models and forecasts of the UN IPCC "are incorrect because they only are based on mathematical models and presented results at scenarios that do not include, for example, solar activity.” - Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, a researcher at the Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.” - U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

“Even doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapour and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will.” – . Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, NZ.

“After reading [UN IPCC chairman] Pachauri's asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it's hard to remain quiet.” - Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.

“For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming? For how many years must cooling go on?" - Geologist Dr. David Gee the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer reviewed papers, and is currently at Uppsala University in Sweden.

“Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp…Climate models can at best be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact.” - Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch UN IPCC committee.

“Many [scientists] are now searching for a way to back out quietly (from promoting warming fears), without having their professional careers ruined.” - Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh.

“Creating an ideology pegged to carbon dioxide is a dangerous nonsense…The present alarm on climate change is an instrument of social control, a pretext for major businesses and political battle. It became an ideology, which is concerning.” - Environmental Scientist Professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, has more than 150 published articles.

“CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or another….Every scientist knows this, but it doesn’t pay to say so…Global warming, as a political vehicle, keeps Europeans in the driver’s seat and developing nations walking barefoot.” - Dr. Takeda Kunihiko, vice-chancellor of the Institute of Science and Technology Research at Chubu University in Japan.

“The [global warming] scaremongering has its justification in the fact that it is something that generates funds.” - Award-winning Paleontologist Dr. Eduardo Tonni, of the Committee for Scientific Research in Buenos Aires and head of the Paleontology Department at the University of La Plata. # #

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616DB87E6

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

man made cottage industry........

I understand the debate on social issues and the concerns over Obama's spending, but I truly do not understand how anyone can deny that Global Warming isn't an incredibly serious issue and the furthest thing imagineable from...omg..a "cottage industry"..

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Really?

“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

“Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly….As a scientist I remain skeptical.” - Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a PhD in meteorology and formerly of NASA who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called “among the most preeminent scientists of the last 100 years.”

Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.” - UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists,” - Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

“The models and forecasts of the UN IPCC "are incorrect because they only are based on mathematical models and presented results at scenarios that do not include, for example, solar activity.” - Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, a researcher at the Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.” - U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

“Even doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapour and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will.” – . Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, NZ.

“After reading [UN IPCC chairman] Pachauri's asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it's hard to remain quiet.” - Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.

“For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming? For how many years must cooling go on?" - Geologist Dr. David Gee the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer reviewed papers, and is currently at Uppsala University in Sweden.

“Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp…Climate models can at best be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact.” - Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch UN IPCC committee.

“Many [scientists] are now searching for a way to back out quietly (from promoting warming fears), without having their professional careers ruined.” - Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh.

“Creating an ideology pegged to carbon dioxide is a dangerous nonsense…The present alarm on climate change is an instrument of social control, a pretext for major businesses and political battle. It became an ideology, which is concerning.” - Environmental Scientist Professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, has more than 150 published articles.

“CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or another….Every scientist knows this, but it doesn’t pay to say so…Global warming, as a political vehicle, keeps Europeans in the driver’s seat and developing nations walking barefoot.” - Dr. Takeda Kunihiko, vice-chancellor of the Institute of Science and Technology Research at Chubu University in Japan.

“The [global warming] scaremongering has its justification in the fact that it is something that generates funds.” - Award-winning Paleontologist Dr. Eduardo Tonni, of the Committee for Scientific Research in Buenos Aires and head of the Paleontology Department at the University of La Plata. # #

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616DB87E6

Congrats...650 Scientists in denial...about 2 million who believe it

[dellinger63]

but I will admit none of these scientists invented the internet or shucked corn.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I understand the debate on social issues and the concerns over Obama's spending, but I truly do not understand how anyone can deny that Global Warming isn't an incredibly serious issue and the furthest thing imagineable from...omg..a "cottage industry"..

see Dells last post....there's 10 sources there!

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Congrats...650 Scientists in denial...about 2 million who believe it

Large quantities of kool aid

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Large quantities of kool aid

I can find 650 peple who believe the moon walk was actually filmed in the Arizona desert...

You want to talk about a Cottage Industry? Being a scientist and making a name for yourself disputing GW is the true definition of that

[Riot]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Large quantities of kool aid

No. Just better confirmatory information over the years. This isn't their first rodeo.

I challenge you to read this stuff (which presents both sides, and current data) and make up your own mind.

Alot of people unfortunately decided global warming didn't exist because they didn't like Al Gore. That's a problem, because it exists independently and having nothing to do with Al Gore.

http://environment.nationalgeographi...lobal-warming/

Originally Posted by GBBob

Congrats...650 Scientists in denial...about 2 million who believe it

There are gadflies in every profession.
There are a whole group of Intelligent Design Evolutionary Biologists
as well.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I understand the debate on social issues and the concerns over Obama's spending, but I truly do not understand how anyone can deny that Global Warming isn't an incredibly serious issue and the furthest thing imagineable from...omg..a "cottage industry"..

Because in the end, if it is occurring it is just occurring and getting a billion people to stop driving cars has nothing to do with stopping global warming. The cottage industry is not that global warming is occurring, but that it is definitely caused by man and CO2 emissions is the cottage industry.

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Because in the end, if it is occurring it is just occurring and getting a billion people to stop driving cars has nothing to do with stopping global warming. The cottage industry is not that global warming is occurring, but that it is definitely caused by man and CO2 emissions is the cottage industry.

Part of it is definitley caused by man.
How much of it, the trend of RAPID CHANGE
in climate, and can this be controlled in any manner
are still very sketchy.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Because in the end, if it is occurring it is just occurring and getting a billion people to stop driving cars has nothing to do with stopping global warming. The cottage industry is not that global warming is occurring, but that it is definitely caused by man and CO2 emissions is the cottage industry.

Yes, it does. Alot. Enough to keep polar bears alive in the wild 10 years from now. Enough to allow my nephew to be able to use the Florida beachfront property he will eventually inherit when he's 50 (it won't be washed away by six inches of higher ocean). The industrial revolution is wonderful, but it has abused the earth, and surprise! in a permanent way. There is indeed a tipping point. We are right on the precipice.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pgardn

There are gadflies in every profession.
There are a whole group of Intelligent Design Evolutionary Biologists
as well.

Don't you dare call them "Biologists". It's an insult to my biology degree.

The problem conservatives got themselves into on
this issue was that the majority would not even
admit that the earth was going through a warming trend.
They flat out denied there was any change.

Then when that fell through, the next argument
had to be "well we are not causing it as it has
happened many times in the past"(warming and
cooling trends when humans were not present).

Then that argument was shown to be skewed as the
warming trend appears to be much more rapid
than should be expected given what we know
about past warming trends.

It is complex. But many people have jumped the gun
on both sides.

Originally Posted by Riot

Don't you dare call them "Biologists". It's an insult to my biology degree.

Well they have their Biology degree also.
PHD's
Point is you can find your gadflies on any issue.
Some of these people who are quite bright are
also natural contrarions.

At Baylor University (Baptist school just up the road
where I went to school U of Texas) they
had big problems with some professors teaching
evolution. This was in the late 70's.

Of course Baylor Regents were also skeptical of dancing at the
time.

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I attribute this trend to a shrinking genital area.
Im getting a wedgy as I type.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

who changed, or will change America more than Obama? did Bush/Cheney radically change America good or bad? Did Falwell change America?

Bush Cheney perhaps muddled through, some good some bad imo. Probably others here think it was all bad. But honestly, what lasting changes did their supposedly pro-Christian regime make? I don't see it, I don't get it. They did not recreate or uproot things that work for america.

on the contrary, your boy Obama is trying to make HUGE changes, and recreate us in the image of failed nations. the changes in the offing are monumental by comparison to anything Bush Cheney accomplished.

I hope you are right Jim and that Obama does make HUGE changes, but I basically agree with what Bill Maher said on his show last week. Obama is looking pretty Clintonian to me recently. Establish an overall political course just left of center, but not so far left that you piss anyone off.....or accomplish much that is meaningful.
Has there been any real move on significant environmental reform? No.
Gay rights? No.
Single-Payer health care? No.
Shift the court significantly to the left when given an opportunity? Hard to say for sure, but given her record, it doesn't seem like it.
Fundamentally changing foreign policy objectives? No.
etc. etc. etc.

I'm not saying that any of these developments really surprised me in the least. As much as I might want a far-left presidency, I knew the country was unlikely to actually get one from Obama. I am obviously still pleased that he won, given the laughable nature of the Republican alternative, but I do wish that with control of the executive branch and substantial majorities in both houses of Congress that the Democrats actually acted like the far-left liberals that conservatives accuse them of being despite their actual record of annoying moderation. I wish they said, "screw 2010 and 2012, we have complete control NOW, so let's actually do something." But alas....they never will.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, it does. Alot. Enough to keep polar bears alive in the wild 10 years from now. Enough to allow my nephew to be able to use the Florida beachfront property he will eventually inherit when he's 50 (it won't be washed away by six inches of higher ocean). The industrial revolution is wonderful, but it has abused the earth, and surprise! in a permanent way. There is indeed a tipping point. We are right on the precipice.

I disagree with this. There is no proof whatsoever how much global warming...if any is caused by man. As I stated in a past post, we have definitive proof of massive global warming occurring in the past with no assistance from man whatsoever. We have no definitive proof if any of whatever warming is occurring is because of man. We should try to curb natural gas and oil use...but the reasons have nothing to do with global warming. That's another political discussion.