Let's go Yankees

[Gander]

Originally Posted by gales0678

agreed - tex stunk and a-rod was not as good as the 1st 2 rdns

A Rod was fine, Tex did stink, but the Yankees are so much better than the Phillies that theyy can absorb such a loss in production from one of their key players. The Phillies can not. Too much is being made of the Phillies pitching. It was good enough to get this thing to 7 games and a Phillies WS win wasnt out of the question if Ryan Howard hits like he is capable of. I realize he doesnt love hitting off of left handers, but hes in the freaking big leagues, suck it up.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Gander

A Rod was fine, Tex did stink, but the Yankees are so much better than the Phillies that theyy can absorb such a loss in production from one of their key players. The Phillies can not. Too much is being made of the Phillies pitching. It was good enough to get this thing to 7 games and a Phillies WS win wasnt out of the question if Ryan Howard hits like he is capable of. I realize he doesnt love hitting off of left handers, but hes in the freaking big leagues, suck it up.

Yeah....he needs to go to school on lefties........that night life will shorten your carreer

[MaTH716]

Here's my thoughts (for what they are worth).
Obviously Ryan Howard did nothing for the Phillies. But no one is really mentioning the ineffectiveness of Rollins and Victorino to an extent. Utley hit 5 homeruns and 4 of them were solo shots. I really think the ability of Jeter and Damon setting the table versus Rollins and Victorino is a major part that isn't being mentioned. I just feel that Jimmy Rollins is the straw that stirs the Phillies drink. When he's on base he causes chaos, not to mention as the series went on he just seemed to lose that swagger that he has.
As far as pitching goes, Mariano is the best ever at the position. Every other closer in the playoffs had some sort of meltdown, except Mariano. With Mr. Automatic there, you are basically only trying to get 21 outs so you can hand it off to him. Honarable mention goes to Damaso Marte who was also brilliant. With the rest of the bullpen (besides Mariano) doing their best to spit the bit, he definitley showed some backclass and lights out stuff shutting down the Phills.
As far as Lidge goes, sure he wasn't good in his only apperance. And I really believe that if he gets out of that inning the Phills probably win that game in the bottom of the inning with the heart coming up. But with that being said, maybe Manuel should have gotten his feet wet a little earlier than game 4. Not making excuses for the guy, but he hadn't seen action for a while. Also give Johnny Damon credit for a great at bat, and of course A-Rod.
With exception of Burnett in game 2, I really didn't think that Yanks starting pitching was that dominate, but they got the job done.
For the most part with exception of Hamels and Pedro (who should have been lifted earlier) last night, the Phills starting pitching did enough to keep them in the games. But the offense really was never able to put together many big innings.
Also I don't think Charle Manuel did a great job. Down 2-1 you really have to go back to your ace who was so brilliant in game 1. Also last night, playing Ben Francisico. Is there no other better option on the bench?
But in my opinion the Phills offense is the major culprit in them getting beat. The Yanks had a huge hole in the back of their lineup, with Cano, Swisher, Cabrerra/Gardner, but the other guys made them pay. For the Phills besides Utley, Werth and Ruiz (who I can't believe how good he is) the rest of the lineup was a total failure.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Here's my thoughts (for what they are worth).
Obviously Ryan Howard did nothing for the Phillies. But no one is really mentioning the ineffectiveness of Rollins and Victorino to an extent. Utley hit 5 homeruns and 4 of them were solo shots. I really think the ability of Jeter and Damon setting the table versus Rollins and Victorino is a major part that isn't being mentioned. I just feel that Jimmy Rollins is the straw that stirs the Phillies drink. When he's on base he causes chaos, not to mention as the series went on he just seemed to lose that swagger that he has.
As far as pitching goes, Mariano is the best ever at the position. Every other closer in the playoffs had some sort of meltdown, except Mariano. With Mr. Automatic there, you are basically only trying to get 21 outs so you can hand it off to him. Honarable mention goes to Damaso Marte who was also brilliant. With the rest of the bullpen (besides Mariano) doing their best to spit the bit, he definitley showed some backclass and lights out stuff shutting down the Phills.
As far as Lidge goes, sure he wasn't good in his only apperance. And I really believe that if he gets out of that inning the Phills probably win that game in the bottom of the inning with the heart coming up. But with that being said, maybe Manuel should have gotten his feet wet a little earlier than game 4. Not making excuses for the guy, but he hadn't seen action for a while. Also give Johnny Damon credit for a great at bat, and of course A-Rod.
With exception of Burnett in game 2, I really didn't think that Yanks starting pitching was that dominate, but they got the job done.
For the most part with exception of Hamels and Pedro (who should have been lifted earlier) last night, the Phills starting pitching did enough to keep them in the games. But the offense really was never able to put together many big innings.
Also I don't think Charle Manuel did a great job. Down 2-1 you really have to go back to your ace who was so brilliant in game 1. Also last night, playing Ben Francisico. Is there no other better option on the bench?
But in my opinion the Phills offense is the major culprit in them getting beat. The Yanks had a huge hole in the back of their lineup, with Cano, Swisher, Cabrerra/Gardner, but the other guys made them pay. For the Phills besides Utley, Werth and Ruiz (who I can't believe how good he is) the rest of the lineup was a total failure.

Still don't understand the Dodgers giving up on Werth.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Here's my thoughts (for what they are worth).
Obviously Ryan Howard did nothing for the Phillies. But no one is really mentioning the ineffectiveness of Rollins and Victorino to an extent. Utley hit 5 homeruns and 4 of them were solo shots. I really think the ability of Jeter and Damon setting the table versus Rollins and Victorino is a major part that isn't being mentioned. I just feel that Jimmy Rollins is the straw that stirs the Phillies drink. When he's on base he causes chaos, not to mention as the series went on he just seemed to lose that swagger that he has.
As far as pitching goes, Mariano is the best ever at the position. Every other closer in the playoffs had some sort of meltdown, except Mariano. With Mr. Automatic there, you are basically only trying to get 21 outs so you can hand it off to him. Honarable mention goes to Damaso Marte who was also brilliant. With the rest of the bullpen (besides Mariano) doing their best to spit the bit, he definitley showed some backclass and lights out stuff shutting down the Phills.
As far as Lidge goes, sure he wasn't good in his only apperance. And I really believe that if he gets out of that inning the Phills probably win that game in the bottom of the inning with the heart coming up. But with that being said, maybe Manuel should have gotten his feet wet a little earlier than game 4. Not making excuses for the guy, but he hadn't seen action for a while. Also give Johnny Damon credit for a great at bat, and of course A-Rod.
With exception of Burnett in game 2, I really didn't think that Yanks starting pitching was that dominate, but they got the job done.
For the most part with exception of Hamels and Pedro (who should have been lifted earlier) last night, the Phills starting pitching did enough to keep them in the games. But the offense really was never able to put together many big innings.
Also I don't think Charle Manuel did a great job. Down 2-1 you really have to go back to your ace who was so brilliant in game 1. Also last night, playing Ben Francisico. Is there no other better option on the bench?
But in my opinion the Phills offense is the major culprit in them getting beat. The Yanks had a huge hole in the back of their lineup, with Cano, Swisher, Cabrerra/Gardner, but the other guys made them pay. For the Phills besides Utley, Werth and Ruiz (who I can't believe how good he is) the rest of the lineup was a total failure.

I agree with everything except maybe the Lidge thing. He just didnt belong there and did nothing at all this year to prove he belonged there. He's okay as long as EVERYTHING goes his way.. but when Damon stole second and third you could see everything drain out of Lidge. Then its on the manager to get someone else out there to record that 3rd out (2 outs when Damon did the stealing) and get outta there without giving up any runs. I guess the problem was We dont Have anyone else!!!

I'm proud of my team though I REALLY wanted to win and also a better outing. Its just ashame our offense had to slump so bad because the Yanks were very hittable.

And yes.. from the beginning of the thread.. I'd still take Ruiz over Posada and Howard over Tex (though Howard stunk) any day.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Still don't understand the Dodgers giving up on Werth.

AND Victorino... scud's favorite player.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I agree with everything except maybe the Lidge thing. He just didnt belong there and did nothing at all this year to prove he belonged there. He's okay as long as EVERYTHING goes his way.. but when Damon stole second and third you could see everything drain out of Lidge. Then its on the manager to get someone else out there to record that 3rd out (2 outs when Damon did the stealing) and get outta there without giving up any runs. I guess the problem was We dont Have anyone else!!!

I'm proud of my team though I REALLY wanted to win and also a better outing. Its just ashame our offense had to slump so bad because the Yanks were very hittable.

And yes.. from the beginning of the thread.. I'd still take Ruiz over Posada and Howard over Tex (though Howard stunk) any day.

I know he really did nothing with his bat. And if they would have lost, he would have been public enemy #1 (maybe #2 behind Girardi). But the amount of errors/runs that he saved with his glove during the entire playoffs is amazing. He was tremendous defensively. I could cringe think about these playoffs with Jason Giambi at first base.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I know he really did nothing with his bat. And if they would have lost, he would have been public enemy #1 (maybe #2 behind Girardi). But the amount of errors/runs that he saved with his glove during the entire playoffs is amazing. He was tremendous defensively. I could cringe think about these playoffs with Jason Giambi at first base.

agree about the defense

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I know he really did nothing with his bat. And if they would have lost, he would have been public enemy #1 (maybe #2 behind Girardi). But the amount of errors/runs that he saved with his glove during the entire playoffs is amazing. He was tremendous defensively. I could cringe think about these playoffs with Jason Giambi at first base.

I 100% agree with this. Tex was unreal at 1st base. He saved a few runs for sure.

I'd still take Howard though cause he's my guy!!

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Here's my thoughts (for what they are worth).
Obviously Ryan Howard did nothing for the Phillies. But no one is really mentioning the ineffectiveness of Rollins and Victorino to an extent. Utley hit 5 homeruns and 4 of them were solo shots. I really think the ability of Jeter and Damon setting the table versus Rollins and Victorino is a major part that isn't being mentioned. I just feel that Jimmy Rollins is the straw that stirs the Phillies drink. When he's on base he causes chaos, not to mention as the series went on he just seemed to lose that swagger that he has.
As far as pitching goes, Mariano is the best ever at the position. Every other closer in the playoffs had some sort of meltdown, except Mariano. With Mr. Automatic there, you are basically only trying to get 21 outs so you can hand it off to him. Honarable mention goes to Damaso Marte who was also brilliant. With the rest of the bullpen (besides Mariano) doing their best to spit the bit, he definitley showed some backclass and lights out stuff shutting down the Phills.
As far as Lidge goes, sure he wasn't good in his only apperance. And I really believe that if he gets out of that inning the Phills probably win that game in the bottom of the inning with the heart coming up. But with that being said, maybe Manuel should have gotten his feet wet a little earlier than game 4. Not making excuses for the guy, but he hadn't seen action for a while. Also give Johnny Damon credit for a great at bat, and of course A-Rod.
With exception of Burnett in game 2, I really didn't think that Yanks starting pitching was that dominate, but they got the job done.
For the most part with exception of Hamels and Pedro (who should have been lifted earlier) last night, the Phills starting pitching did enough to keep them in the games. But the offense really was never able to put together many big innings.
Also I don't think Charle Manuel did a great job. Down 2-1 you really have to go back to your ace who was so brilliant in game 1. Also last night, playing Ben Francisico. Is there no other better option on the bench?
But in my opinion the Phills offense is the major culprit in them getting beat. The Yanks had a huge hole in the back of their lineup, with Cano, Swisher, Cabrerra/Gardner, but the other guys made them pay. For the Phills besides Utley, Werth and Ruiz (who I can't believe how good he is) the rest of the lineup was a total failure.

Definitely agree. You can add Lidge's demise in Game 4, and Hamels mental mistake pitches in the 5th innning of Game 3. Pettitte was awful last night. Phils missed a lot of 2-0 and 3-1 counts last night. They should of had him.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Gander

It really came down to Ryan Howard. There is no way possible the Phillies beat the Yankees without major production from him. They didnt get it, in fact they didnt get squat from him. They lose. Its really that simple. Doesnt matter who pitches for the Phillies. Lee could have pitched 3 gems and they would have still lost without Ryan Howard being Ryan Howard.

He didnt need to be as crazy good as he was in against the Dodgers but he needed to produce. He sucked and they lost to a Yankee team who didnt play anywhere close to their true ability.

Ryan Howard played for the most part like Ryan Howard. The Yankees buried him with lefties and he simply doesnt hit lefties. He overwhelmingly faced lefties during the series, he did not hit them.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Gander

A Rod was fine, Tex did stink, but the Yankees are so much better than the Phillies that theyy can absorb such a loss in production from one of their key players. The Phillies can not. Too much is being made of the Phillies pitching. It was good enough to get this thing to 7 games and a Phillies WS win wasnt out of the question if Ryan Howard hits like he is capable of. I realize he doesnt love hitting off of left handers, but hes in the freaking big leagues, suck it up.

Did you watch any of the games?

It was a pretty close series. If Matsui doesnt golf that curveball in game 2 the entire series changes. When Boston swept the Cards a few years ago, that was a team that was clearly better than the other.

And 'suck it up"? Why would a guy be able to do something that he hasnt been capable of doing his whole career? He doesnt hit lefties. He wont ever hit them very well.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Did you watch any of the games?

It was a pretty close series. If Matsui doesnt golf that curveball in game 2 the entire series changes. When Boston swept the Cards a few years ago, that was a team that was clearly better than the other.

And 'suck it up"? Why would a guy be able to do something that he hasnt been capable of doing his whole career? He doesnt hit lefties. He wont ever hit them very well.

then why not take him out of the lineup or move him to bat 8th like torre did to a-rod a couple of yrs ago when he couldn't get a hit?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by gales0678

then why not take him out of the lineup or move him to bat 8th like torre did to a-rod a couple of yrs ago when he couldn't get a hit?

Because you dont show up your all star stud mvp first baseman like that and expect to be able to look him in the eye ever again...unless you are joe torre and clearly dont like the player that you are doing that to.

Sometimes in sports, your star players are faced with less than desirable situations. Good or bad, you roll with your stars and hope for the best.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by gales0678

then why not take him out of the lineup or move him to bat 8th like torre did to a-rod a couple of yrs ago when he couldn't get a hit?

You can't do that. He and Utley are your franchuse players you don't what to show him up. What if the Yankees pull their left handed starter and the clean-up position comes up against a righty and he is in the 8 hole?

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by 3kings

You can't do that. He and Utley are your franchuse players you don't what to show him up. What if the Yankees pull their left handed starter and the clean-up position comes up against a righty and he is in the 8 hole?

torre did it with a-rod was he not a franchise player?

[3kings]

Originally Posted by gales0678

torre did it with a-rod was he not a franchise player?

Gales, I don't recall the situation. Details? He must have had a reason or was trying to teach him a lesson. Howard is still a young maturing player you don't want to instill in him that he can't hit top quality lefties(even though he can't). There had to be an expectation that Pettite would only last 4-6 innings on 3 days rest and you wanted him in the clean-up spot to bat against the Yankee middle relievers and protect Utley.

[Gander]

So if you are Ryan Howard and you know you struggle with lefties, and you know the Yankees have pretty much all lefties, and very good ones at that, you would rather stay in the game and cost your team a chance at the title?
Rather than be a man and let somebody else come in and replace you, somebody that could do better than go 3 for 19, and a total of 1 RBI in the first 5 games?

Ya, this makes sense. Because you are a "franchise player", just stay in on and things will evntually go your way...

And Chuck, I probably watched about half the amount of innings you did so maybe I am not the best person to say that the Yankees were a lot better than the Phillies. But I was actually referring to the talent level and the potential each team had. I saw a lot of the Yankees this year and I dont think they played near to their potential this postseason, yet they still moonwalked through the post season. Yawn, good for the Yankees, glad its over with. I am baseballed out.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by Gander

So if you are Ryan Howard and you know you struggle with lefties, and you know the Yankees have pretty much all lefties, and very good ones at that, you would rather stay in the game and cost your team a chance at the title?
Rather than be a man and let somebody else come in and replace you, somebody that could do better than go 3 for 19, and a total of 1 RBI in the first 5 games?

Ya, this makes sense. Because you are a "franchise player", just stay in on and things will evntually go your way...

And Chuck, I probably watched about half the amount of innings you did so maybe I am not the best person to say that the Yankees were a lot better than the Phillies. But I was actually referring to the talent level and the potential each team had. I saw a lot of the Yankees this year and I dont think they played near to their potential this postseason, yet they still moonwalked through the post season. Yawn, good for the Yankees, glad its over with. I am baseballed out.

You didn't see the Yankees sitting Texeira did you? Good players go in slumps too. The Yankees were a superior team which became magnified when you got no production from your clean-up hitter.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by 3kings

You didn't see the Yankees sitting Texeira did you? Good players go in slumps too. The Yankees were a superior team which became magnified when you got no production from your clean-up hitter.

The difference is the Yankees are so good they can absorb a Texeria hitting slump and nobody is better in the field than Tex. The Phillies cant win without production from Howard. They arent that deep.