I need to listen to ATR more often

[slotdirt]

So, honest question, just for the sake of argument, but if Nashoba's Key hadn't passed on like she did, would Zenyatta still be 17-17?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The most famous American turf runner? You're talking about English Channel, right?

Yes. English Channel.

The early 1950's was the beginning of widespread turf racing in the US and the first award for turf horse of the year.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by CSC

While it is fair to question her dirt form because really she hasn't raced on it enough to gauge whether she will be just as good or better on it, you can't take away what she has done on the "synthetics". People like to make the point she beat just turf horses in the classic, since turf horses handle synth just as good if not better, she then beat some pretty good turf, dirt, and synth runners in the BCC last year. Infact she made minced meat out of them. You can take issue she hasn't been tested on dirt, you can take issue with her campaign, but you cannot take issue with the field she beat last fall at SA, to do so you are ignoring all the Euro's that have fared well on synth the last 2 yrs at SA.

i dont know if you missed it or not but i asked a question in another thread and am curious about your thoughts. zenyatta is clearly the best synthetic runner we have seen. she might be the best synthetic runner we will ever see. until we are able to see more what is wrong with calling her the best synthetic runner of all time, but not one of the best of all time?

if american racing has historically been dirt and turf, why are some so quick to annoint greatness to a horse who has made 2 starts on one of the surfaces we determine greatness on? i know people want to say synthetics are here and i agree, they are.

tennis seems like a good analogy here. rafael nadal is the best clay court player, maybe ever. but, hes also beat the best on grass and hard court. so far zenyatta has beaten the equine quivalent of james blake on dirt and people want to compare her to rod laver.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Yes. English Channel.

The early 1950's was the beginning of widespread turf racing in the US and the first award for turf horse of the year.

Cool, at least you and GPK are on the same page then.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Yes. English Channel.

The early 1950's was the beginning of widespread turf racing in the US and the first award for turf horse of the year.

You think English Channel is the most famous turf horse?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

You think English Channel is the most famous turf horse?

Did i say that ? I lost it.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Did i say that ? I lost it.

I hope not.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I hope not.

Actually I found it blasphemous to draw any parallel to the unnamed turf horse.

I was just curious how turf racing and turf horses were viewed back in the day when dirt racing comprised 99% of the races in the US.

[zippyneedsawin]

OK. I don't have time to read through all 13 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone has already made this points.
Zenyatta is a very nice mare. She's done nothing wrong, answered the bell for every race and deserves high accolades. However, the company she's kept the majority of the time has been suspect at best. She did beat Ginger Punch (an eclipse winner) in the Apple Blossom.. she gets credit for that one. She did win the BCC.. kudos for that.. It's pointed out that the race was in her backyard on a surface the majority of the field was unproven on.. that's valid.
to me, the BCC win was terrific, but I can see why others knock it.
The bottom line is her connections could have sent her to the Foster last weekend.. she would have silenced her doubters with a win in that race.. but they didn't.. In my opinion.. if she beats Quality Road, Blame or Rachel ( I believe she's back in form now).. she deserves to be put on a pedestal. Hopefully she gets that chance in the BCC.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

OK. I don't have time to read through all 13 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone has already made this points.
Zenyatta is a very nice mare. She's done nothing wrong, answered the bell for every race and deserves high accolades. However, the company she's kept the majority of the time has been suspect at best. She did beat Ginger Punch (an eclipse winner) in the Apple Blossom.. she gets credit for that one. She did win the BCC.. kudos for that.. It's pointed out that the race was in her backyard on a surface the majority of the field was unproven on.. that's valid.
to me, the BCC win was terrific, but I can see why others knock it.
The bottom line is her connections could have sent her to the Foster last weekend.. she would have silenced her doubters with a win in that race.. but they didn't.. In my opinion.. if she beats Quality Road, Blame or Rachel ( I believe she's back in form now).. she deserves to be put on a pedestal. Hopefully she gets that chance in the BCC.

If a 2 minute soundbite of the exchange between Steve and Davidowitz was attached to this thread it would save time for everyone.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

If a 2 minute soundbite of the exchange between Steve and Davidowitz was attached to this thread it would save time for everyone.

Got a chance to hear it. I couldn't help but laugh when Davidowitz was like 'stop yelling' or something. Steve's right, he does sound professorial which I happen to find soothing when I listen to him on ATR. When he delivered that line with that tone as Steve's volume ramped up, I'm sorry, it was funny.

Related to the backlash, folks here brought up Amanda Duckworth's article. I felt bad after reading it because some of the commenters were just mean. Most were positive, but I don't get low blows that people make. The defensiveness is crazy. I haven't seen this many flame wars on message boards since the top 100 list came out and folks were up in arms about who's better Man O' War or Secretariat. Seriously, it's apples and oranges. They're both great.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hey Chucky, did you read Savantore's comments on Best Pal at that Paulick Report site?

If not, I'll quote him here for you to answer the Best Pal vs Zenyatta remark.

Though I'm not really that sure you were being serious thinking Zenyatta would beat BP 90 out of 100 times.

Doug was like 8 years old when Best Pal was running. Like i said he was good on about 10 occasions.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Doug was like 8 years old when Best Pal was running. Like i said he was good on about 10 occasions.

Sound argument.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Doug was like 8 years old when Best Pal was running. Like i said he was good on about 10 occasions.

I'm not quite that young.

As I learned much later in life ... Ian Jory fucl<ing sucks as a trainer .. and Best Pal won 4 Graded Stakes (including 2 Grade 1's) as a 2yo for Jory .. and he ran 2nd in Kentucky Derby for Jory as well.

When Best Pal left Jory's barn ... in his very first start he won the Swaps by 4 lengths - Corporate Report was 2nd - and he just missed in the Haskell next out and won the Travers following that. In start #2 for Best Pal after leaving Jory's barn ... he won the Pacific Classic, as a 3yo, in track record time - with a 118 Beyer - defeating quality older horses like Unbridled, Twilight Agenda, Farma Way, and Festin.

Here is Best Pal's 4-year-old season ...



He won the Santa Anita Handicap in blowout fashion with a still to this day record 123 Beyer - despite suffering a quarter crack before the race.

He was supposed to scratch out of the Oaklawn Park Handicap after problems with a foot .. they ran him and he beat a horse coming off of back to back Gr 1 wins and a next out Gr 1 winner.

Best Pal got hurt in the Pimlico Special - missed the rest of the year - and was never the same beast again.... although he did thump handicap champion Bertrando in the Hollywood Gold Cup the following year.

I'm not sure if you agree - but I think it's really stupid to hold the latter part of a past-prime geldings career against him...especially when you're talking about a horse who won a 5 furlong debut race - won 5 stakes races at age 2 - competed in the Classic races - and was still good enough to miss winning the Big Cap at age 7 by just a lip.

How many of precocious heavily raced 2yo's that compete in the Classics - do you see running giant races at age 7 and 8?

Don't say Funny Cide either .. that lone dazzling 97 Beyer win he had as a 7yo came at Finger Lakes for crying out loud.... does his pathetic late form diminish that he was once even money against Empire Maker for a shot at a triple crown?

[Danzig]

I see lazarus has come forth. Welcome back sir!!

[Indian Charlie]

Gawd, I forgot about that Pacific Classic as a 3yo.

I was all over Twilight Agenda there. I can't even imagine Zenyatta beating that field.

Personally, I think Chucky is just being difficult.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Sound argument.

Yeah - calling me out on my age is the trendy new thing I guess. Like everyone just remembers things from 18 years ago with lazer like precision and has no need to review later on.

Who knows... in another 25 years .. I might have seen so much that I will have no need to review and just be putting quotes into old trainers mouths about stuff that never even happend.

How do I counter this amusing new attack? Maybe like ....

- were your father and grandfather stone cold degenerate gamblers who forcefed this sh!t straight down your throat?

- did you grow up living in a room above a bar that was known for bookmaking on the racing they showed on the local cable TV station before the big OTB came to the city in 1990?

- did your father ever quit his business to train race horses - even though he had never so much as pet a horse in his life before making the decision - and only got a trainers license because he bribed a guy? And only wanted a trainer license so he could gamble.

I don't even think they simulcasted with more than 3 or 4 other tracks in places like NY and Cal prior to like maybe 1995 ... if that ...did they? I can't imagine how people in those areas have seen as much racing even if they are 50. It's not easy for anyone to match that kind of degenerate upbringing.

[Indian Charlie]

Well, it's funny on how one hand he can lament people not knowing horses in the past, then on the other hand, he spews that crap out.

What do you do for a living?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Well, it's funny on how one hand he can lament people not knowing horses in the past, then on the other hand, he spews that crap out.

If he didn't go to a PAC 10 school ... you'd probably say Cannon is just an Easterner with a bias against Cal racing.