Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

This to me says a lot about you and your beliefs.

Can you talk about politics objectively?

Whether you agree or disagree with the bill acting the way the democrats have done is just down right wrong.

I say what they did was right. They used a legal parlimentary procedure to block the ramming through of a "deficit repair" bill (even though the Wisconsin deficit isn't deep enough to formally trigger the need for a "repair bill") that contains far, far more than just deficit corrections.

Guess we'll just disagree.

We can not have law makers acting in this behavior any time a bill is presented that they do not agree with. That is what elections are for.

I missed your daily anger and self-rightous indignation over the past two years of Senate Republicans filibustering just about everything

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Wake up

Please point out, in your state budget over the past five years, where public employee pensions and health benefits have "broken" your state budget. How these are the greatest deficit causers.

I'd like to know what actual percentages of your state budget these items have been.

And of course, you've been politically active and furious about this over the past many years, demonstrating against it, I assume? You've been angry and vocally against your state government people, the ones that do the collective bargaining, that have given these perks away?

I'm tired of this new fad of demonizing teachers, just so the GOP can break the unions to try and break Democratic votes and contributions. It's absurd kabuki theatre. Get angry about your state revenue being constantly decreased, over the past 20 years by tax giveaways to corporations. A tax giveaway was about the first thing your new GOP governor did, too. And no anger from you over that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Just to be fair shouldn't there be an outcry by the left of " MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow LIES !!" ?

But she apparently didn't. Even PolitiFact said that when discussing what was being talked about when confronted by the Maddow show. LOL - even Scott Walker has been using that number.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

But she apparently didn't. Even PolitiFact said that when discussing what was being talked about when confronted by the Maddow show. LOL - even Scott Walker has been using that number.

Fact check on your fact check. Twitter can sometimes be wrong!

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...ve-budget-sur/

response from the Milwaukee Sentinel Journal back to Maddow after asking for a retraction

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepo...116936958.html

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Can you talk about politics objectively?



I say what they did was right. They used a legal parlimentary procedure to block the ramming through of a "deficit repair" bill (even though the Wisconsin deficit isn't deep enough to formally trigger the need for a "repair bill") that contains far, far more than just deficit corrections.

Guess we'll just disagree.



I missed your daily anger and self-rightous indignation over the past two years of Senate Republicans filibustering just about everything

did you seriously just ask that question??? riot, you have unabashedly and unashamedly admitted your love for the democratic party; that you think they're the cure for what ails us as a country...you back their play on any and every issue that comes down the pike --and then you post that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Fact check on your fact check. Twitter can sometimes be wrong!

Not on Twitter, thanks. I posted the original Wisconsin budget document, (the one where Walker gains and uses the same number) which is apparently too complex for folks to read themselves. I also posted the detailed Politifact answer to Maddow saying essentially, "well, it wasn't the number you used, it was the context"

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

did you seriously just ask that question???

Absolutely. When Wiphan and I are talking about what the Dems are doing in Wisconsin, and whether we agree or not with their actions, what place does Wiphan interjecting the personally prejudiced and assumptive, "This to me says a lot about you and your beliefs" have in that?

That just proves Wiphan has preconceived prejudices that run deep. Wiphan doesn't have frigging clue what supporting the Democrats "means about me and my beliefs". Sadly. What it means is only that I support the Democratic action, for the reason I gave. Nothing more or less.

One is talking about the other poster. One is talking about the subject.

Then you go on with the following, which has nothing at all to do with the above, really, and thus is confusing to me why you said it:

riot, you have unabashedly and unashamedly admitted your love for the democratic party; that you think they're the cure for what ails us as a country...you back their play on any and every issue that comes down the pike --and then you post that.

At least you could be accurate. No, I have not posted my "love" of the Democratic party, I have posted my complete and utter disappointment with the failures of the Republican party. Not the same thing. There is alot I am not comfortable with within the most progressive wing of the Democratic part (and I've said as much here, which appears to be completely ignored) - why I never voted for a Democrat on a national level before Obama.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Absolutely. When Wiphan and I are talking about what the Dems are doing in Wisconsin, and whether we agree or not with their actions, what place does Wiphan interjecting the personally prejudiced and assumptive, "This to me says a lot about you and your beliefs" have in that?

That just proves Wiphan has preconceived prejudices that run deep. Wiphan doesn't have frigging clue what supporting the Democrats "means about me and my beliefs". Sadly. What it means is only that I support the Democratic action, for the reason I gave. Nothing more or less.

One is talking about the other poster. One is talking about the subject.

Then you go on with the following, which has nothing at all to do with the above, really, and thus is confusing to me why you said it:



At least you could be accurate. No, I have not posted my "love" of the Democratic party, I have posted my complete and utter disappointment with the failures of the Republican party. Not the same thing. There is alot I am not comfortable with within the most progressive wing of the Democratic part (and I've said as much here, which appears to be completely ignored) - why I never voted for a Democrat on a national level before Obama.

it tells me he knows you have a bias. and if you're uncomfortable with some of their actions, yours posts don't show it. if anyone wishes to know the stance of the dems on a subject, they need look no further than your posts. you aren't objective at all. and you may be a recent 'convert' to the cause, but it's still your cause.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Can you talk about politics objectively?



I say what they did was right. They used a legal parlimentary procedure to block the ramming through of a "deficit repair" bill (even though the Wisconsin deficit isn't deep enough to formally trigger the need for a "repair bill") that contains far, far more than just deficit corrections.

Guess we'll just disagree.



I missed your daily anger and self-rightous indignation over the past two years of Senate Republicans filibustering just about everything

So you consider filibustering the same as the actions the Senate Democrats in WI have taken? Fleeing the state, not showing up for your job, and not representing your constituents is the same as a filibuster? So every time a party disagrees with another they should just flee to Canada or in this case IL until the other party gives in? They should hold the state or the country hostage and not allow business to be conducted until they get their way. I do not see how that is considered democracy, but what do I know I didn't consult twitter or wikipedia

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Please point out, in your state budget over the past five years, where public employee pensions and health benefits have "broken" your state budget. How these are the greatest deficit causers.

I'd like to know what actual percentages of your state budget these items have been.

And of course, you've been politically active and furious about this over the past many years, demonstrating against it, I assume? You've been angry and vocally against your state government people, the ones that do the collective bargaining, that have given these perks away?

I'm tired of this new fad of demonizing teachers, just so the GOP can break the unions to try and break Democratic votes and contributions. It's absurd kabuki theatre. Get angry about your state revenue being constantly decreased, over the past 20 years by tax giveaways to corporations. A tax giveaway was about the first thing your new GOP governor did, too. And no anger from you over that.

Do you not think public unions have any effect on the budget issues in the state now and in the future (i.e. future pension pay outs, ridiculous union bargained benefits, monopolized health insurance, etc.) ? Let's take a look at the auto industry in the US. Do you think the unions had any effect on the stability, sustainability and profitability of the US auto companies?

[Riot]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it tells me he knows you have a bias.

Yes: I am speaking in favor of the Democratic side, and Wiphan is speaking in favor of the Republican side.

Neither of which has anything to do with explaining why Wiphan feels the need to interject the personal perjorative, "This to me says a lot about you and your beliefs"

It's nice that you are trying to argue in support of Wiphans' assumptive prejudices, but what I said was that going there is uncalled for.

Why do people here always have to interject and make it personal about the other posters, when the discussion is about the pluses or minuses and actions of the politicans?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

So you consider filibustering the same as the actions the Senate Democrats in WI have taken?

I consider both legal parlimentary procedures that were chosen and used.

I didn't like when the GOP did it in the Senate, and you don't like it when the state senate Democrats are doing it here.

Fleeing the state, not showing up for your job, and not representing your constituents is the same as a filibuster?

They most certainly didn't "flee their job", or "not represent their constituents", they are talking to constituents and staff daily, they are quite available to the other Senate members and the Governor (who still refuses to take their calls)

BTW, who is not "doing their job", when the public overwhelmingly is telling Walker they don't want union-busting, the Dems are trying to negotiate, a couple of the Senate Republicans are trying to negotiate, and Walker is standing still refusing to meet, refusing to take phone calls, saying he refuses to change his stance, and he is even caught on that phone call, saying he lied to the Democrats, saying he'd trick them into thinking he'd negotiate to get them back but then wouldn't?

I do not see how that is considered democracy, but what do I know I didn't consult twitter or wikipedia

Okay, you have to keep it personal. You can't talk about the politics objectively. So, yes, poor little unknowledgable victim you, poor little unknowledgable victim you. Is that what you want to hear? What does that have to do with anything? You don't consider what the Dems are doing democracy, stand by your opinion. Don't try to pawn it off on me being mean to poor little victim you.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Do you not think public unions have any effect on the budget issues in the state now and in the future

Yes, I do. However, I think that is a very small percentage of the budget. Too small to blame the unions for massive budget problems, and as a real reason for the union-busting. So what is that percentage?

Where is the financial proof that Walker's union-busting is based upon real financial numbers? He hasn't shown any yet.

What we "think" doesn't really matter. It's not a matter of opinion. What "is", does matter. This should be readily and easily proven by black and white numbers. Where are they?

Either have any of the other Republican governors, who were told by the Koch Brothers, owners of the Republican Governors Association and huge donators to getting these GOP Governors elected, that they must bust the unions before the 2012 election, in order to try and bust Democratic donors and votes. The other governors have done a complete 180 on their plans after the Walker fiasco regarding their union busting (see Indiana and New Jersey)

Let's take a look at the auto industry in the US. Do you think the unions had any effect on the stability, sustainability and profitability of the US auto companies?

Yes, I do. The auto industries bargained terrific benefits, then they made bad cars and terrible business decisions, so they could no longer afford to pay for what they promised the unions.

But the UAW union isn't the Wisconsin teachers, librarian, prison, fire and police unions.

So when we talk about Wisconsin, lets talk about the situation there, not somewhere else where the only thing in common is the word "union".

[SOREHOOF]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Do you not think public unions have any effect on the budget issues in the state now and in the future (i.e. future pension pay outs, ridiculous union bargained benefits, monopolized health insurance, etc.) ? Let's take a look at the auto industry in the US. Do you think the unions had any effect on the stability, sustainability and profitability of the US auto companies?

The UAW ended up owning the auto companies with a little help from Obama to sidestep legal bankruptsy proceedings.

[SOREHOOF]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, I do. The auto industries bargained terrific benefits, then they made bad cars and terrible business decisions, so they could no longer afford to pay for what they promised the unions.

But the UAW union isn't the Wisconsin teachers, librarian, prison, fire and police unions.

They bargained benefits that played a role in bankrupting the auto cos. They should have been allowed to go down. The UAW bit off the hand that feeds, but Obama was right there to save them with our $$. Screwing stock and bond holders. There is a huge difference between public and private sector unions. At least until the private sector unions need taxpayer $$ to survive.

[dellinger63]

Can the taxpayers get a list of those who were paid for in previous years?


The Milwaukee teachers union has dropped a lawsuit seeking to get its taxpayer-funded Viagra back.

The union sued in July 2010 to force the school board to again include the erectile dysfunction drug and similar pills in its health insurance plans.

The union has argued the board’s policy of excluding such drugs from the plans discriminates against male employees; the board has countered the 2005 move was meant to save money.

Really!!!!!!!!

http://www.gazettextra.com/weblogs/l...p-viagra-suit/

[Riot]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

They bargained benefits that played a role in bankrupting the auto cos. They should have been allowed to go down. The UAW bit off the hand that feeds, but Obama was right there to save them with our $$. Screwing stock and bond holders. There is a huge difference between public and private sector unions. At least until the private sector unions need taxpayer $$ to survive.

Didn't GM make a billion dollar profit this year? The US has sold off most of it's GM's shares, so we've gotten most of our money back. GM has far less debt, still has money to pay for all those retirees' pensions it's carrying (a terrible thing if those were gone forever), and still has all those jobs in development, manufacturing, etc. It's leaner, meaner, and should be around. I disagree it should have been allowed to go bankrupt and disappear, with all those pensions and jobs with it.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Didn't GM make a billion dollar profit this year? The US has sold off most of it's GM's shares, so we've gotten most of our money back. GM has far less debt, still has money to pay for all those retirees' pensions it's carrying (a terrible thing if those were gone forever), and still has all those jobs in development, manufacturing, etc. It's leaner, meaner, and should be around. I disagree it should have been allowed to go bankrupt and disappear, with all those pensions and jobs with it.

the jobs went first , then they stole the pensions. And GM was crowing about paying their debt while they were warning about the 16bil shortfall in pensiions out of the other side of their mouths. It was and is criminal!

[Danzig]

[quote=Riot;759120]

Yes: I am speaking in favor of the Democratic side, and Wiphan is speaking in favor of the Republican side.

Neither of which has anything to do with explaining why Wiphan feels the need to interject the personal perjorative, "This to me says a lot about you and your beliefs"

It's nice that you are trying to argue in support of Wiphans' assumptive prejudices, but what I said was that going there is uncalled for.

Why do people here always have to interject and make it personal about the other posters, when the discussion is about the pluses or minuses and actions of the politicans?

i didn't say it was uncalled for. i found your remark ironic, and posted as such. it was nothing personal, the only thing personal is that you posted it, and i asked if you really meant it. had wiphan typed it to you, i'd have asked him instead.
i don't recall backing up anyone's assertions in this thread. i have said the whole thing is a mess and a shame, and i meant that. that state isn't being helped by the actions of both the exec and ledge. the govt is no dictator, he has no business acting like one. the unions have, imo, blown this out of proportion. there are things that need cutting; wisconsin would be best served if it's 'leaders' all sat down and hashed all this out.
meanwhile, it seems to be all about who is winning the media war.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

I consider both legal parlimentary procedures that were chosen and used.

I didn't like when the GOP did it in the Senate, and you don't like it when the state senate Democrats are doing it here.



They most certainly didn't "flee their job", or "not represent their constituents", they are talking to constituents and staff daily, they are quite available to the other Senate members and the Governor (who still refuses to take their calls)

BTW, who is not "doing their job", when the public overwhelmingly is telling Walker they don't want union-busting, the Dems are trying to negotiate, a couple of the Senate Republicans are trying to negotiate, and Walker is standing still refusing to meet, refusing to take phone calls, saying he refuses to change his stance, and he is even caught on that phone call, saying he lied to the Democrats, saying he'd trick them into thinking he'd negotiate to get them back but then wouldn't?



Okay, you have to keep it personal. You can't talk about the politics objectively. So, yes, poor little unknowledgable victim you, poor little unknowledgable victim you. Is that what you want to hear? What does that have to do with anything? You don't consider what the Dems are doing democracy, stand by your opinion. Don't try to pawn it off on me being mean to poor little victim you.

you see them as doing their job, while I see the democrats acting in childish/terrorist behavior. Totally difference of opinion, which I think would set a dangerous precedent if they suceed. I do not see how this is democracy. If the tables were turned the republicans would be burned at the stake in media, whereas the democrats are seen as standing up for the people. Elections are won by majority opinion and the legislature should represent the majority. You will quote bias media polls, but the truth is WI voters voted for Walker and the republicans to take over. You have to let them do their job. I am just pointing out where your so called facts usually come from. You use the liberal media, papers, etc to showcase your facts, when I gave you a summary part of the bill on the public utilities you dismissed it. see http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf look at the summary and your past posts. Read the bill and stop reading Wikipedia, huffington, MSNBC, etc.