Ron Santo

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

8 years, that advantage is not 8 years, maybe 2 HR's a year extra to the ballpark.....

Robinsons first 3 years and last 2 he did not play much.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

The fact that I want to convey that IN HIS TIME, he was probably the best 3rd baseman playing...

No one outside of diehard cub fans would argue that in that era Santo was a better 3rd baseman than Brooks Robinson.

[ddthetide]

Originally Posted by Scav

Mazeroski, a perfect EXAMPLE....

mazeroski is one of the best defensive 2nd basemen ever and has the most dramatic HR in world series history.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

While it is hard to argue because both players meant different things to their teams, Sandburg was clearly a better all around player. HE WON games on his own when the Cubs sucked. He WON GAMES HIMSELF in a team sport. He was a SMALL notch below defensively, and probably better then Morgan towards the end of his career, but offensively, you will not convince me otherwise that Morgen was better, not a chance

Morgan is a better player.
Comparing the players against the leagues that they played in:

Batting average
Morgan .271 vs league .260
Sandberg .285 vs league .269
slight advantage to RS

OBP
Morgan .392. vs league .326
Sandberg . 344 vs league .333
huge advantage Morgan

OPS
Morgan .819 vs league .710
Sandberg .796 vs league .741
huge advantage Morgan

Slg %
Morgan .427 vs League .384
Sandberg .452 vs league .404
even

Runs Created per 27 outs
Morgan 6.59
Sandberg 5.58
advantage Morgan

Runs created per 650 Ab
Morgan 100.4
Sandberg 91.8
advantage Morgan

Secondary average
Morgan .431
Sandberg .296
huge advantage Morgan

Sb
Morgan 689 from 801 attempts 86%
Sandberg 344 from 451 attempts 76%
big advantage Morgan

And these stats are a bit skewed in favor of Sandberg because he played his whole career in a very favorable hitters park while Morgan had 6 years of the Astrodome. Plus Morgan did not know when to go and really dragged his numbers down the last 2 years of his career. Sandberg is a great player and a top 6 all time second basemen. But Morgan is only behind the great Rogers Hornsby as a second baseman and is the best of the modern age.

OK I am on this now. Ryne Sanberg and Morgan. Say they were both good hitters, even. (Even though Sanberg hit with much more power). There is no way, no flippin way, that Morgan was as much of an advantage in the field as Sandberg. I watched both these guys play extensively. Sandberg covered huge amounts of ground as gracefully as you will ever see.

HE HAS GOT TO BE ONE OF THE BEST FIELDING 2ND BASEMEN OF ALLTIME...

As for Santo. The list I presented, how in the world can someone say the guys on that list could not field as well when a couple never even had a motion picture camera on them.

And comparing Brooks Robinson to Santo for batting??? HOw in God's name did Ozzie Smith make the hall of fame? Thats the same reason Brooks is where he is. No comparison in the field. Which is thoroughly overlooked, and dont stat it with fewest errors.

ITS HOW MANY HITS YOU TAKE AWAY. Sandberg and Robinson took enormous numbers of hits away, as of course did Ozzie.

This is fun. The old guys.

Originally Posted by pgardn

OK I am on this now. Ryne Sanberg and Morgan. Say they were both good hitters, even. (Even though Sanberg hit with much more power). There is no way, no flippin way, that Morgan was as much of an advantage in the field as Sandberg. I watched both these guys play extensively. Sandberg covered huge amounts of ground as gracefully as you will ever see.

HE HAS GOT TO BE ONE OF THE BEST FIELDING 2ND BASEMEN OF ALLTIME...

As for Santo. The list I presented, how in the world can someone say the guys on that list could not field as well when a couple never even had a motion picture camera on them.

And comparing Brooks Robinson to Santo for batting??? HOw in God's name did Ozzie Smith make the hall of fame? Thats the same reason Brooks is where he is. No comparison in the field. Which is thoroughly overlooked, and dont stat it with fewest errors.

ITS HOW MANY HITS YOU TAKE AWAY. Sandberg and Robinson took enormous numbers of hits away, as of course did Ozzie.

This is fun. The old guys.

How can anyone say that Santo was better than someone who never had a motion picture camera on them? Get serious. Do you think a few dagurreotype shots by Matthew Brady taken post-civil war showing some of the nifty fielding moves of Home Run Baker at the hot corner would prove he was a better fielder than Santo? Get serious. This argument is lame. The modern players are bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than their predecessors with better sports equipment, better training facilities, better instructors, etc. Again, NONE of the HOF'ers on your list other than Brooks Robinson was a better fielder than Ron Santo.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Morgan is clearly the best modern day 2nd baseman. He was a great leadoff hitter, was the best baserunner in an era where stealing was important, and was great defensive player. All of which have nothing to do with who plays for your team.

Absolutely agree. Morgan didn't have the range in the field that Sandberg had but he was very good defensively. Sandberg's offensive statistics were amassed in Wrigley Field, clearly an advantage over the parks Morgan played in. In spite of this, Morgan was clearly a better offensive player than Sandberg. He also performed his best when the bright lights were on him. He shined in the clutch, and especially, in the post season.

Originally Posted by Satan's Twin

How can anyone say that Santo was better than someone who never had a motion picture camera on them? Get serious. Do you think a few dagurreotype shots by Matthew Brady taken post-civil war showing some of the nifty fielding moves of Home Run Baker at the hot corner would prove he was a better fielder than Santo? Get serious. This argument is lame. The modern players are bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than their predecessors with better sports equipment, better training facilities, better instructors, etc. Again, NONE of the HOF'ers on your list other than Brooks Robinson was a better fielder than Ron Santo.

So if modern day players are better, then Santo loses out to many of the 3rd basemen that play NOW. You dont think the players of 2000 are bigger faster and stronger (if thats what makes one a HOFer) than the players of the late 1960's early 70's? So who needs to get serious?

I was a very big Cubs fan (showing a bit of prejudice here) Sandberg was fantastic. Santo was very good, but HOF... thats really tough. Sandberg is a no-brainer. And I think he was better than Morgan. Considerably.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Morgan is a better player.
Comparing the players against the leagues that they played in:

Batting average
Morgan .271 vs league .260
Sandberg .285 vs league .269
slight advantage to RS

OBP
Morgan .392. vs league .326
Sandberg . 344 vs league .333
huge advantage Morgan

OPS
Morgan .819 vs league .710
Sandberg .796 vs league .741
huge advantage Morgan

Slg %
Morgan .427 vs League .384
Sandberg .452 vs league .404
even

Runs Created per 27 outs
Morgan 6.59
Sandberg 5.58
advantage Morgan

Runs created per 650 Ab
Morgan 100.4
Sandberg 91.8
advantage Morgan

Secondary average
Morgan .431
Sandberg .296
huge advantage Morgan

Sb
Morgan 689 from 801 attempts 86%
Sandberg 344 from 451 attempts 76%
big advantage Morgan

And these stats are a bit skewed in favor of Sandberg because he played his whole career in a very favorable hitters park while Morgan had 6 years of the Astrodome. Plus Morgan did not know when to go and really dragged his numbers down the last 2 years of his career. Sandberg is a great player and a top 6 all time second basemen. But Morgan is only behind the great Rogers Hornsby as a second baseman and is the best of the modern age.

You cherry picked numbers there CRAZY style, where is HR's/RBI's/2b's/Errors/hits/K's/Walks. You bust out 2nd rate stats except for SB's (which I will not and can't argue with because Sandberg wasn't a good baserunner). The interesting thing about this is I have never seen runs created per AB's. I am now a HUGE fan of that stat. Where did you get that from?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Robinsons first 3 years and last 2 he did not play much.

Santo had like 5 years were he was battling diseases or injuries

I would not raise hell if Santo got in. But he just does not roll easily in like Sandberg. Santo's consistency would be the trump card imo (unlike Reggie Jackson who turned it on when needed).
Sandberg would be the 3rd best second baseman of all time, behind the slugger Rogers Hornsby and Bill of Pirate fame...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

You cherry picked numbers there CRAZY style, where is HR's/RBI's/2b's/Errors/hits/K's/Walks. You bust out 2nd rate stats except for SB's (which I will not and can't argue with because Sandberg wasn't a good baserunner). The interesting thing about this is I have never seen runs created per AB's. I am now a HUGE fan of that stat. Where did you get that from?

The stats I selected are not second rate and are more easily comparable then strictly raw data like HR, runs, rbis, etc which are directly related to era, ballpark and lineup. Baseball Prospectus has tons of interesting stats like these. I think that the biggest and probably best all around offensive stat is Value over replacement player(VORP) because it eliminates the biases of era, ballpark, lineups, position difference, etc. This stat takes almost every offensive stat into consideration and compares the players # vs. the league average from each individual year at the same position. The beauty of this is that you can compare players of different eras and positions (except pitchers which have thier own measure). It would be very similar to a sheet number in horseracing where all the variables are formulated into a single number. Using VORP it is readily apparent that Morgan is not only better than Sandberg but by a wide margin.

VORP by year for Morgan
Year MLB ranking VORP ranking at 2b
1970 18th 53.6 1st
1971 12th 43.1 1st
1972 1st 74.1 1st
1973 1st 77.6 1st
1974 1st 79.8 1st
1975 1st 92.0 1st
1976 1st 94.3 1st
1977 3rd 72.4 1st
1978 68th 26.7 6th
1979 59th 29.5 7th
1980 48th 31.8 6th
1981 41st 22.0 3rd
1982 17th 47.9 1st
1983 57th 27.6 7th

VORP for Sandberg
year MLB ranking VORP ranking at 2b
1983 134th 13.6 18th
1984 2nd 68.3 1st
1985 9th 61.0 1st
1986 51st 29.3 8th
1987 37th 40.6 4th
1988 49th 30.8 4th
1989 14th 49.5 2nd
1990 3rd 68.7 1st
1991 14th 52.6 2nd
1992 5th 61.7 1st
1993 73rd 27.2 8th
1994 350th 16.0 23rd
1996 111th 19.7 14th

Morgan was not only the best 2nd baseman in baseball from 1970 thru 1977 he is probably the best overall player in baseball during that time. Sandberg was the #1 rated 2nd baseman 4 times but was in the top 10 in all of baseball those same 4 years. He has some other years years where he was a top player but not to the same degree as Morgan.
I have not been able to find much difference in the defensive abilities of the 2 players but Morgan is not only a better player than Sandberg he may well be the best overall player of the 1970's.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have not been able to find much difference in the defensive abilities of the 2 players but Morgan is not only a better player than Sandberg he may well be the best overall player of the 1970's.

Sandberg was the better defensive player. He covered much more ground. This of course goes unnoticed, the errors playing a large role in determining Gold gloves. Sandberg was much, much longer than Morgan and shut down balls hit to right field. I watched this. Also Sandberg rarely made dives at balls because he was already in the spot. He was great at anticipating and so smooth he hardly looked like he was moving.

I dont think its close on the defensive end. Of course Sandberg was the All-American boy who cheated on his beautiful wife and kids... so that story follows him along. Good looking guy, nice family, a hero... he took a publicity fall. Did not keep him out of the Hall. But he fell from superhero status.

[timmgirvan]

Did he just say "motion picture camera"??

Originally Posted by pgardn

Sandberg was the better defensive player. He covered much more ground. This of course goes unnoticed, the errors playing a large role in determining Gold gloves. Sandberg was much, much longer than Morgan and shut down balls hit to right field. I watched this. Also Sandberg rarely made dives at balls because he was already in the spot. He was great at anticipating and so smooth he hardly looked like he was moving.

I dont think its close on the defensive end. Of course Sandberg was the All-American boy who cheated on his beautiful wife and kids... so that story follows him along. Good looking guy, nice family, a hero... he took a publicity fall. Did not keep him out of the Hall. But he fell from superhero status.

You've got it ass backwards. Sandberg's first wife was rumored to be hooked up with a number of different athletes, the most often heard name was Don Marijle, then of the Phoenix Suns. Sandberg divorced her. During his induction speech into the HOF, he broke down when he thanked his second wife, whom he met after his divorce, for helping him cope during that period which he called the most difficult period of his life.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Sandberg was the better defensive player. He covered much more ground. This of course goes unnoticed, the errors playing a large role in determining Gold gloves. Sandberg was much, much longer than Morgan and shut down balls hit to right field. I watched this. Also Sandberg rarely made dives at balls because he was already in the spot. He was great at anticipating and so smooth he hardly looked like he was moving.

I dont think its close on the defensive end. Of course Sandberg was the All-American boy who cheated on his beautiful wife and kids... so that story follows him along. Good looking guy, nice family, a hero... he took a publicity fall. Did not keep him out of the Hall. But he fell from superhero status.

You've got it ass backwards. Sandberg's first wife was rumored to be hooked up with a number of different athletes, the most often heard name was Don Marijle, then of the Phoenix Suns. Sandberg divorced her. During his induction speech into the HOF, he broke down when he thanked his second wife, whom he met after his divorce, for helping him cope during that period which he called the most difficult period of his life.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/hi...Locator=GARVEY

What about this guy? I know he had an odd personality,but, without him, I honestly don't think the Dodgers would have had nearly the success they did from '74-'81.All those 200+ hit seasons......They weren't Ichiro hits.They were mainly hits that were clutch,and led to division titles,and 4 World Series appearances(the last resulting in a ring.)

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/hi...Locator=GARVEY

What about this guy? I know he had an odd personality,but, without him, I honestly don't think the Dodgers would have had nearly the success they did from '74-'81.All those 200+ hit seasons......They weren't Ichiro hits.They were mainly hits that were clutch,and led to division titles,and 4 World Series appearances(the last resulting in a ring.)

He's tending to his hundred of children - he he he!

You had to remind me of '84, didn't you. ?!

Hmmm! Reminds me of Kirk Gibson also. OK! so he was not a 3B!

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

He's tending to his hundred of children - he he he!

You had to remind me of '84, didn't you. ?!

Hmmm! Reminds me of Kirk Gibson also. OK! so he was not a 3B!

No,I wrote nothing about his 5th World Series appearance.Of that Dodger infield of the 70's-early 80's,I think the only one that retired as a Dodger was Billy Russell(how did that bumblin' Okie ever get a ring?) They brought the '81 team back for a reunion a couple years ago.Too bad Cey,Lopes,and Garvey couldn't have retired as Dodgers,but that isn't realistic.As for Garvey's personal life,I don't know much about it.Doesn't help that he married a pretty mental patient named Cindy.You are probably right. His private life will (most likely)keep a very good player from ever getting into the Hall.

Originally Posted by Satan's Twin

You've got it ass backwards. Sandberg's first wife was rumored to be hooked up with a number of different athletes, the most often heard name was Don Marijle, then of the Phoenix Suns. Sandberg divorced her. During his induction speech into the HOF, he broke down when he thanked his second wife, whom he met after his divorce, for helping him cope during that period which he called the most difficult period of his life.

Yes and R.Palmerio and on and on. And then Sandberg remarries his neighbor. Two sides to every story.