Lies & Lying Liars that tell them

[estreetposse]

How many millions has Frankie S. and Magna lost this fiscal quarter?

How's Gulfstream after the wonderful changes he made to the place?

and

Free admission? If you can't pay the $3 to get into the Spa, then go sit next to stinky old bastard with no teef at the local OTB.

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by theiman

The title of this topic is: Lies & Lying Liars that tell them

Please explain to me what was the lie that Mr. Goodell stated in your first post.

Also joining in on the frivolity, Andrew Goodell of Capital Play:

Andrew Goodell of Capital Play, another of the companies bidding and one of whose partners helps run the Melbourne Cup, disagreed. "The difference between us and NYRA is our attendance numbers go up and theirs go down. Our revenue has doubled in the last five years, while NYRA has gone into bankruptcy," he said.


I cant argue with you on Mr. Perle's statement.

Actually you are incorrect - his statement is a lie..since NYRA is not part of the NYS Government then it makes the whole statement an un-truth and therefore a lie...

As an example..if I said a did not sleep with your wife - yet I had- but I did not sleep..that would still be a lie...get it now?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by estreetposse

How many millions has Frankie S. and Magna lost this fiscal quarter?

How's Gulfstream after the wonderful changes he made to the place?

and

Free admission? If you can't pay the $3 to get into the Spa, then go sit next to stinky old bastard with no teef at the local OTB.

I went to Gulf about 40 times last season. I like the place.

People complain about the lack of grandstand seating? I sat there most every day. And on most of those days it was 75% empty. The grandstand was not sold out on any day I was there. On the other hand, the simulcast pit is always jammed.

The grandstand at Gulfstream is very close to the track and offers a great view.

They are not doing well with their slots. I've read they are considering removing 1/2 of them.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Actually you are incorrect - his statement is a lie..since NYRA is not part of the NYS Government then it makes the whole statement an un-truth and therefore a lie...

As an example..if I said a did not sleep with your wife - yet I had- but I did not sleep..that would still be a lie...get it now?

I did not have sex with that woman!!

[ELA]

In the past, I was never a fan of NYRA so to speak. However, if you are going to look at this situtation in it's totality, then you cannot argue that NYRA has done a wonderful job in righting many of the wrongs. Their goals and objectives in the past 3-5 years has not been to improve the sport, the industry or the show they put on. The focus was, and needed to be, on infrastructure, management, and cleaning a house that needed to be clean. Anyone who doesn't think they have done that, and done it well, is either very misinformed, uneducated to realities of the global situation, or just entrenched in their own prejudices. With regard to the latter, I understand those types of prejudices don't die overnight.

Be that as it may, one cannot look at attendence and then point to who would be more successful in running the franchise. You can't look at handle either. Those aspects exist in different worlds. I think many of the people who looking to justify bidders other than NYRA are grasping onto the successes or positive attributes that these bidders may have had in other venues. At the same time, they must point to negative items that befell NYRA. Unfortunately, this doesn't speak to the important issues. Bankruptcy is not only indicitive of management. It is also, as in this case, indocitive of environment. Every bidder -- every single one -- is looking for the franchise and wants it under a different set of rules, laws, etc. However, the old ones are the ones NYRA was saddled with for the past X # of years. It's a fallacious arugment.

It's not about lies, hypotheticals, bankruptcy, or any of the other propaganda. It's not about me, you, the guy sitting at the end of the grandstand, or the owner in the Trustee's Room. It's about what is in the best interest of everyone -- NY racing as a whole. I think that most people are letting the propaganda take the front seat to the very real issues that will dictate the future of NY racing.

Eric

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by theiman

Magna: I guess the results for Remington 2006 and SA 2007 dont count?

CD: Arlington just released plus numbers for 2007

As for NYRA--a Chimp could run Saratoga and do great. What exactly do they do the other 46 weeks that everyone loves them?

But again, that is off topic and off from my question.

Your question was about Goodell? His quote was indeed not as egregious as Perle's, but it struck a similar tone.. The grandest idea these guys have had from the start of the process is to paint as broad a brush as possible with soundbite smears and innuendo versus NYRA in a political atmosphere. They have failed to offer any constructive suggestion as to what they have to offer as solutions to the problems that face ALL of racing except to say "we can do great things"...

Comparing any American racing venue to Aussie racing is ridiculous. Does Australia have major league baseball, football, basketball, NASCAR, PGA golf, et al competing for TV airtime and headline space? Does Australia have a casino every 27 miles competing for its' gambling dollars? Does Australia have a fractured OTB and TV licensing problem like the US? The answer to these questions is no. My complaint with his approach to the issue is that like Perle, he can only keep dragging out old news that is no longer germane to the discussion as opposed to giving specifics as to why Capital Play is a viable alternative worth considering.

The fact is that when there was NO racino dollars in the mix with the franchise, NYRA was the ONLY party interested in running racing in NY. Anyone that wants the racing itself to be the focus of the franchise holder is backing the Association.

And a point as to the comments above...

"A chimp could run Saratoga and be successful"? Really? Any recognition for NYRA's role in making Saratoga so successful? You think that what goes on at Saratoga has been happening forever? No one seems to remember when Saratoga was a money pit for NY racing, attendance was modest, or worse, and there were calls for the meet to be abandoned in the 60's...

This may be news to you and others as it's rarely brought up. But before Saratoga as a town began its' renaissance, the track was a burden to the Association costing a fortune to maintain and drawing little in the way of the acclaim it enjoys now. It was NYRA, with Gov. Harriman, that legislated that Saratoga race a minimum of 24 a year, assuring the permanent status of the Spa, and began to heavily market the "August place to be". That's when the phenomenon of Saratoga began.

You cite Remington and Arlington as feathers in the cap of MEC and CDI, but offer no credit to NYRA for Saratoga being the crown jewel of race meets in the industry. Interesting rationale..

[theiman]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Your question was about Goodell? His quote was indeed not as egregious as Perle's, but it struck a similar tone.. The grandest idea these guys have had from the start of the process is to paint as broad a brush as possible with soundbite smears and innuendo versus NYRA in a political atmosphere. They have failed to offer any constructive suggestion as to what they have to offer as solutions to the problems that face ALL of racing except to say "we can do great things"...

Comparing any American racing venue to Aussie racing is ridiculous. Does Australia have major league baseball, football, basketball, NASCAR, PGA golf, et al competing for TV airtime and headline space? Does Australia have a casino every 27 miles competing for its' gambling dollars? Does Australia have a fractured OTB and TV licensing problem like the US? The answer to these questions is no. My complaint with his approach to the issue is that like Perle, he can only keep dragging out old news that is no longer germane to the discussion as opposed to giving specifics as to why Capital Play is a viable alternative worth considering.

The fact is that when there was NO racino dollars in the mix with the franchise, NYRA was the ONLY party interested in running racing in NY. Anyone that wants the racing itself to be the focus of the franchise holder is backing the Association.

And a point as to the comments above...

"A chimp could run Saratoga and be successful"? Really? Any recognition for NYRA's role in making Saratoga so successful? You think that what goes on at Saratoga has been happening forever? No one seems to remember when Saratoga was a money pit for NY racing, attendance was modest, or worse, and there were calls for the meet to be abandoned in the 60's...

This may be news to you and others as it's rarely brought up. But before Saratoga as a town began its' renaissance, the track was a burden to the Association costing a fortune to maintain and drawing little in the way of the acclaim it enjoys now. It was NYRA, with Gov. Harriman, that legislated that Saratoga race a minimum of 24 a year, assuring the permanent status of the Spa, and began to heavily market the "August place to be". That's when the phenomenon of Saratoga began.

You cite Remington and Arlington as feathers in the cap of MEC and CDI, but offer no credit to NYRA for Saratoga being the crown jewel of race meets in the industry. Interesting rationale..

Just a followup on some of the things you mentioned.
You are correct about Saratoga in the past, however in recent years and I am talking about the last 20-25 years, it has been the shining jewel vs a burden. It would be hard to screw that up right now by just keeping it status quo. Something on the outside could hurt it, like gas rationing, another 9/11 situation, etc, but if Saratoga keeps offering the same stakes schedule and the same marketing promos, it is a no lose situation. When I said a chimp, it was on the current Saratoga.

Australia does have sports competition with racing. Aussie Rules Football, Rugby and Soccer are big down there and pack them in to the stadiums and are on TV. They are sports we dont see up here, and probably dont care for, as I am sure they could care less for our baseball. They also have auto racing down under. Ask any Aussie who "Brocky" is and they know. FYI--Brocky was an autoracer in OZ that was killed in an accident about 2 years ago. He was as close to what the USA had in Dale Earnhardt.
As for racetracks and OTB's, the Aussies do have TAB's(which actually are regionalized by three areas in the country)So there are two of the pools that dont go into the main track pool. Aussie tracks also have on the premises licensed Fixed odds bookmakers, which drain handle from the regular pools. They pay a fee to be there but I dont know whether the fee is something simiilar to a track in California paying a fee to NYRA for taking its signal.
Yet, it is a problem for them to deal with too.

As for my mention of SA, Remington and Arlington it was a response to another poster who said what does Magna and CDI know about racing, thus I posted 3 recent tracks that had plus meets.

Finally, I doubt there would be any company or organization that would want to own and run the NY tracks if there were no slots in the future. If they did it would only be to possibly sell off one of the properties to make a killing (that is assuming the property was theres to sell)

How many tracks can you name in the last 10 years, that are new, that dont have a racino on them? Racing by itself is a tough business and a sell. Saratoga and DM are unique meets that make money by opening their doors. Thus, NYRA, being the current operator, will probably continue as the management of the tracks. Hopefully someone else, with top experience comes in to run the slots and the deal being made is a fair one for both sides.

Seems the companies bidding for NY racing are like the politicians, negative campaigning. That sucks, but I guess its what we have come to expect.

By the way, I appreciate your forum and the fact matters can be discussed and debated without personal attacks.

[sumitas]

If I may interject until Steve responds...

theiman,"Thus, NYRA, being the current operator, will probably continue as the management of the tracks. Hopefully someone else, with top experience comes in to run the slots and the deal being made is a fair one for both sides."

Gov SPitzer has named NYRA as operator of horse racing. To me it seems there is some wiggle room for an operator of the slots, other than NYRA, to be named. Your scenario might come to pass. I hope NY just gets on with it this year. It's been about 5 years since this slots deal has been in limbo, 4 of which were under Pataki.

[theiman]

Originally Posted by sumitas

If I may interject until Steve responds...

theiman,"Thus, NYRA, being the current operator, will probably continue as the management of the tracks. Hopefully someone else, with top experience comes in to run the slots and the deal being made is a fair one for both sides."

Gov SPitzer has named NYRA as operator of horse racing. To me it seems there is some wiggle room for an operator of the slots, other than NYRA, to be named. Your scenario might come to pass. I hope NY just gets on with it this year. It's been about 5 years since this slots deal has been in limbo, 4 of which were under Pataki.

Yeah, the "probably" part has to do with the NY Legislature and how they want to handle Spitzers recommendation. I follow this stuff closely and have read all of the reports.

[jman5581]

Who owns the land, NYRA or the state? Has that been decided? Has a court issued an opinion that settles that dispute or is it still up in the air? How could a third party smartly bid on this franchise not knowing who owns a billion dollars worth of property?

[jman5581]

Nevermind, I see upon further review that the main fixture of the Spitzer deal was for the state to have the racetrack property while NYRA received some forgiveness of debts, etc (approx. $130M). Was that a good deal?!?!?!?!

It sounds like these guys are going to have to work together in the future. NYRA's going to get to run racing most likely, but you can see how the corporations are going to be used to bring in the slots and make the state more money.

[Scav]

I feel I should comment about using Arlington as an example. You are looking at a comparsion from 06' to 07', where field size was down by about 3 horses because no one wanted to run with fear of breaking down. For all extensive purposes, numbers were extremely even with 05's numbers, and has Arlington personal concerned because they were expecting 5-10% growth from the 05' numbers.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Scav

I feel I should comment about using Arlington as an example. You are looking at a comparsion from 06' to 07', where field size was down by about 3 horses because no one wanted to run with fear of breaking down. For all extensive purposes, numbers were extremely even with 05's numbers, and has Arlington personal concerned because they were expecting 5-10% growth from the 05' numbers.

Did John Frank have a good meet?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Did John Frank have a good meet?

Not sure, but I met him for the first time on contest day and he is really awesome.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

Sounds like the original poster has some connections to NYRA?

Defend them all you want but the facts are that NYRA went bankrupt and NYRA has been indicted.

As a writer, which you are, you need to learn how to read words correctly.

Perhaps you should take out a dictionary and learn the meaning of the words WERE and WENT.

Pretty sloppy calling somebody a Liar when what they are stating is 100% factually correct. The only error is saying that NYRA is part of the government. And that isn't lying, that is just incompetence. So maybe he doesn't qualify to be running racing in NY, but his incompetence does make me think he would make a good member of the NYRA gate crew. LOL

Please stick to facts and stop with the cheerleading.

Perhaps you have an interest in seeing NYRA keep the franchise?

i have no ties to NYRA but as i stated i agree with him on the original post. please tell me what circuit offers better racing consistantly through the year. answer: none. the only time racing is inferior up here is the dead of winter. thats because all the major players go south to gulfstream. people with money don't like cold weather. if it were not for that fact magna would probably have gulfstream park for sale too! as for the bankrupcy, its being fixed . it was a poor business model that needed updating. NYRA in the summer is a boom to my city and all of upstate. Face it folks their superior product brings alot $$$$ to new york , forget NYRA's bottom line. which is the part i like anyway. They don't need to be in it for a ton of profit. If you don't like paying 3 bucks to get in, 5 on travers day, low take outs and the fastest horses in the world. Go ahead see how fast one these other operations screw it up for the average bettor. Australian racing ...lol.. i've watched it . looks like they're running in a backyard pasture. when they can beat the likes of Invasor or Rags to Riches maybe i'll listen to them.

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by jman5581

Nevermind, I see upon further review that the main fixture of the Spitzer deal was for the state to have the racetrack property while NYRA received some forgiveness of debts, etc (approx. $130M). Was that a good deal?!?!?!?!

It sounds like these guys are going to have to work together in the future. NYRA's going to get to run racing most likely, but you can see how the corporations are going to be used to bring in the slots and make the state more money.

jman hit the nail on the head. Spitzer needed to settle the land claim issue and he did so. Spitzer left open the possibility of another group running the slots part of the deal. I don't think there's any way another group gets the racing franchise because the land ownership issue will blow up in their face, so to speak.

[theiman]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

i have no ties to NYRA but as i stated i agree with him on the original post. please tell me what circuit offers better racing consistantly through the year. answer: none. the only time racing is inferior up here is the dead of winter. thats because all the major players go south to gulfstream. people with money don't like cold weather. if it were not for that fact magna would probably have gulfstream park for sale too! as for the bankrupcy, its being fixed . it was a poor business model that needed updating. NYRA in the summer is a boom to my city and all of upstate. Face it folks their superior product brings alot $$$$ to new york , forget NYRA's bottom line. which is the part i like anyway. They don't need to be in it for a ton of profit. If you don't like paying 3 bucks to get in, 5 on travers day, low take outs and the fastest horses in the world. Go ahead see how fast one these other operations screw it up for the average bettor. Australian racing ...lol.. i've watched it . looks like they're running in a backyard pasture. when they can beat the likes of Invasor or Rags to Riches maybe i'll listen to them.

Big A runs for 6.5 months a year and that is inferior alone, not just dead of winter. Big A has about 2 races that anyone else other than regulars in NY watch and those are the Cigar Mile and the Wood.

As for Australia, Invasor might have done well there, but RTR would have been blown away, IMO.

Neither of the horses you mentioned could have beaten Makybe Diva at any distance. Within a span of 2 months she won from 7F to 2 miles, and won 2 races in between that, any she didnt get to race against tiny fields either.

The races you must have seen from Australia were Prov. tracks, mid week, similar to TDN or TurP here.

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I do have an interest in seeing NYRA keep the franchise and I make no apologies about doing so.. In addition, I don't want take out increased as Capital Play and Empire BOTH outlined in their proposals to the state as part of their 'innovative' approaches.

And as a side note, until some else pays the bills at this website, I'll cheerlead all I want..

"Im finishing my coffee"-Walter Sojak

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by theiman

Big A runs for 6.5 months a year and that is inferior alone, not just dead of winter. Big A has about 2 races that anyone else other than regulars in NY watch and those are the Cigar Mile and the Wood.

As for Australia, Invasor might have done well there, but RTR would have been blown away, IMO.

Neither of the horses you mentioned could have beaten Makybe Diva at any distance. Within a span of 2 months she won from 7F to 2 miles, and won 2 races in between that, any she didnt get to race against tiny fields either.

The races you must have seen from Australia were Prov. tracks, mid week, similar to TDN or TurP here.

aqueduct is not that bad. especially that time of the year. look at california, their racing is going downhill, small fields, and horses that are not competeing well at the top level. Student council can go there and win grade 1. and the 3 yo's were crap again this year.. other than Rags to riches who crushed the california circuit before heading east. that brings me to the poly track which at keenland and del mar is a farce. those meets are pretty much ruined except for grass . so watch ny get even better horses. you are right i was watching mid week so i don't know much about their racing. but in international competition they don't win much. where on the dirt surface we pretty much "clean house ". so you really don't know how fast they are against top comp. i could care less about how many different distances you win at if the horse is good and is running against inferior horses of course that horse will win everthing. how many dirt races have they won at dubai. where we come in 1st , 2nd and 3rd in many . i don't see the shieks buying some australian horse to try and win the sprint race they went right for Diabolical. any one that thinks our dirt horses don't dominate is crazy