Rachel ran a good race, but...

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Well maybe she doesn't "skip" over other tracks, but she certainly can run just as fast over them.

And I still don't know what you're talking about re: Street Sense. He ran huge races in the Preakness and Travers.

Street Sense was better at Churchill Downs, he had the innate abilty to run the turns, handle the surface, look better...I don't know how much better to explain it. He was just more formidable when he ran at Churchill.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

Street Sense was better at Churchill Downs, he had the innate abilty to run the turns, handle the surface, look better...I don't know how much better to explain it. He was just more formidable when he ran at Churchill.

I don't know what to say. If the red sea doesn't part two different times, he never wins a stakes race at Churchill, yet apparently his "innate ability" to run there still would've carried him to victory. This is beyond strange. He ran terrific races at other tracks, probably better ones than his Churchill races, yet he somehow supposedly didn't look as good doing it, so he was a "lesser horse elsewhere".

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I don't know what to say. If the red sea doesn't part two different times, he never wins a stakes race at Churchill, yet apparently his "innate ability" to run there still would've carried him to victory. This is beyond strange. He ran terrific races at other tracks, probably better ones than his Churchill races, yet he somehow supposedly didn't look as good doing it, so he was a "lesser horse elsewhere".

Okay we will have to disagree, but it's my opinion that his Kentucky Derby and BC Juvenile wins were his most impressive races given the competition and the manner he won those races.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I agree he ran well at Pimlico, but that was a different Street Sense we saw at Saratoga, compared to Churchill. He was life and death to get by Grasshopper.

Life and Death? Id call it a well rated half length

[CSC]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I agree he ran well at Pimlico, but that was a different Street Sense we saw at Saratoga, compared to Churchill. He was life and death to get by Grasshopper.

I agree, Grasshopper was what 9-1 that day? He was stepping up to stakes company first time also. Street Sense really had to work to get by and the result was in doubt for the longest time. Not what you would want from a 3/5 favorite.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs-hL...e=channel_page

The pace was different than the Derby, it was much slower and he had to be closer. He was probably a better animal when allowed to lope along early and make one run. But I counted Borel hitting him at least 14 times. I wouldn't call that well rated.

If you look at my avatar he had the lead from that point on and never relinquished

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by kgar311

If you look at my avatar he had the lead from that point on and never relinquished

And to be fair, except for the BC Juvy where he ran on the conveyor belt, he never crushed anybody. His problem was getting to the lead and relaxing, which people blamed his Preakness loss on. He tried to do the same thing in the Travers, which is why Borel had to get after him IMO.

[blackthroatedwind]

Street Sense was all out to beat Grasshopper in the Travers. It's not even a discussion.

Having said that, the Grasshopper that ran at Saratoga in 2007 was exceptionally good, and Street Sense ran very well to beat him that day.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Friesan Fire is this year's Cowtown Cat. Anyone that gave him a shot either in the Derby or, laughably, the Preakness really needs to consider giving up the game.

As for PTN, he did his job by hitting the board in the Derby. Sent all the Beyerites into heavy SPIN mode.

How exactly did his Derby do that? He ran the same figure he has been running all year.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

How exactly did his Derby do that? He ran the same figure he has been running all year.

Then he must've been fast enough to hit the board that day-- as he ran faster than horses that were previously faster than he was. What a conundrum. And, of course, the claim was that he wouldn't hit the board. Simple as that, Bro.

You should really stop by more often. It's brutal here (without you).

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Then he must've been fast enough to hit the board that day-- as he ran faster than horses that were previously faster than he was. What a conundrum. And, of course, the claim was that he wouldn't hit the board. Simple as that, Bro.

You should really stop by more often. It's brutal here (without you).

The race certainly changed when I Want Revenge scratched, and Dunkirk and Friesan Fire basically were no shows. Without those guys, there weren't many left that would above him. Even then, even the most novice handicapper probably realizes by now a mid 90s synthetic figure is probably as good as 100 on dirt.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

Okay we will have to disagree, but it's my opinion that his Kentucky Derby and BC Juvenile wins were his most impressive races given the competition and the manner he won those races.

i thought his scant victory over any given saturday at tampa was one of his better efforts. then there was the battle with curlin...in both those races, he didn't get the god given parting of the red sea perfect trip, but ran his eyeballs out.
but then, i'm more impressed with rachels preakness than her oaks, so go figure.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i thought his scant victory over any given saturday at tampa was one of his better efforts. then there was the battle with curlin...in both those races, he didn't get the god given parting of the red sea perfect trip, but ran his eyeballs out.
but then, i'm more impressed with rachels preakness than her oaks, so go figure.

He got a pretty good trip at Tampa and as far as I'm concerned he and Curlin both got good setups at Pimlico.

NT

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

The race certainly changed when I Want Revenge scratched, and Dunkirk and Friesan Fire basically were no shows. Without those guys, there weren't many left that would above him. Even then, even the most novice handicapper probably realizes by now a mid 90s synthetic figure is probably as good as 100 on dirt.

Yeah

The point was never made that this was an exceptional horse but only one that tries hard. There were some, however, who made it a point to base their wagering around this horse NOT hitting the board. Whatever the situation, when he did so, they were exposed; and went to great lengths to 'explain' this.

P.S. we both knew that Friesan Fire would be a no show, right?

[cmorioles]

I never considered FF a contender with his cushy trip win followed by a 7 week layoff.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Having said that, the Grasshopper that ran at Saratoga in 2007 was exceptionally good, and Street Sense ran very well to beat him that day.

Considering Grasshopper's surrounding form to those two Saratoga starts ... I guess he just loved the dirt there more than the dirt at other places.

He was 3rd at Churchill in an allowance to Roman's Run and Morada Key with an 89 Beyer in his start prior to Saratoga. And was beaten a length by Going Ballistic at 1/5 odds with a 92 Beyer in his start after Saratoga.

Grasshopper won that Saratoga allowance race by 6 in his start prior to the Travers .. the 2nd place finisher Smokeyjonessutton was defeated in his next 13 starts and mercifully retired. 3rd place finisher Mister Triester ran Beyers of 20 points more or less in each of his next 3 starts after the Grasshopper allowance race.

If Street Sense's Travers was bad ... how about his Jim Dandy where Cowtown Cat finished 4th beaten just 3.5 lengths.

I have to keep my place cemented as the resident Street Sense hater and all.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i thought his scant victory over any given saturday at tampa was one of his better efforts. then there was the battle with curlin...in both those races, he didn't get the god given parting of the red sea perfect trip, but ran his eyeballs out.
but then, i'm more impressed with rachels preakness than her oaks, so go figure.

If both of those races were run at CD, I think he wins both and perhaps even comfortably. Given the video evidence of his BC and Derby wins on that track I wonder why there is even a discussion about this. He just catapults off of those turns like no one else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS6q36Xqcps - Derby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6NdbRDVkQ - BC Juv

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Friesan Fire is this year's Cowtown Cat. Anyone that gave him a shot either in the Derby or, laughably, the Preakness really needs to consider giving up the game.

As for PTN, he did his job by hitting the board in the Derby. Sent all the Beyerites into heavy SPIN mode.

Need to consider giving up the game? Although I did not bet him for my own reasons but I can not fault anyone that took a stab with him for either the win/place slot. He fired a nice workout, top trainer and has some nice graded wins. With his odds your telling a lot of good handicappers to give up the game based on two races? Interesting......


Scat

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

If both of those races were run at CD, I think he wins both and perhaps even comfortably. Given the video evidence of his BC and Derby wins on that track I wonder why there is even a discussion about this. He just catapults off of those turns like no one else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS6q36Xqcps - Derby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6NdbRDVkQ - BC Juv

Because we have these useful little things called speed figures that can help us use our minds as well as our eyes to evaluate horses.

Aside from that, he ran on a conveyor belt in the Juvy and got as good of a trip as a horse can get in the Derby. I'd say that should factor into the discussion that you think shouldn't happen because you linked to YouTube.

He was a good horse who also got extremely lucky in his Churchill wins. This idea that he was an indisputable horse for course is bizarre. He only won the Travers and was a head behind the horse of the year on other tracks.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

If both of those races were run at CD, I think he wins both and perhaps even comfortably. Given the video evidence of his BC and Derby wins on that track I wonder why there is even a discussion about this. He just catapults off of those turns like no one else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS6q36Xqcps - Derby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6NdbRDVkQ - BC Juv

we all have heard the term 'horses for courses'. i just appreciate a hard fought win against tougher circumstances far more than an easy win, whether a horse benefits from some sort of home field advantage or lack of good competition. it's why i appreciate rachels preakness far, far more than i do her oaks win. that takes nothing away from that performance at ky in saying so-but i like to see a horse actually show he can get to the bottom, and keep trying.