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#21
10-26-2009, 08:29 PM
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It doesn't tilt the greatness scale in any way for me but, watching a horse win easily is a beautiful thing, and I prefer front-runners to closers. 
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#22
10-26-2009, 08:35 PM
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It's one thing to say she isn't the best ever, but to say that she was 0-5 at Santa Anita is sort of conveniently forgetting to mention some pretty fabulous races she ran.
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#23
10-26-2009, 08:45 PM
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Especially now with the # of synthetic surfaces, if a horse demonstrated tremendous ability on turf and synthetic, for example, I could classify the horse as "great" even if it never performed on dirt, or performed poorly in a couple of attempts. Other than that I basically agree. 1. Ability to beat good horses 2. Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances 3. Ability to run fast figures 4. Ability to win major races 5. Ability to handle a wide range of distances
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#24
10-26-2009, 08:46 PM
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I hear ya - but I never really understood why almost everyone seems to most associate Cigar with the toughness and consistentcy traits instead of Skip Away... considering they were both from about the same time period. I always thought Skip Away was clear cut the toughest and most consistant SOB of the 90's. Skip Away was stakes placed four times at age 2 - twice just missing in Graded Stakes races. At age 3, he won the Blue Grass by 6 lengths in his final Ky Derby prep, the eventual Preakness winner finished 2nd. The eventual Belmont winner finished 3rd. He ran in all 3 triple crown races .. as well as the Ohio Derby, Haskell, Travers, and Woodbine Million, before defeating the older Cigar in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. At age 4, he made 11 starts - 10 times running a Beyer of 112 or better - 9 times running a 115 or better and capped off the season with a 6 length Breeders Cup Classic win. At age 5, he won 7 of his 9 starts - 5 of which at the Grade 1 level. Carried as much as 131 pounds and raced in all the different major regions of the country. Cigar was extremely tough and consistant ... but it lasted a little less than 2 years... and he certainly didn't see anything like the brilliant level of competition Skip Away had to put up with throughout his entire career.
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#25
10-26-2009, 08:47 PM
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#27
10-26-2009, 08:55 PM
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Look at the record Euro's have had against our best turf horses. A horse like Manila may have struck out with my #1 factor ... but he hit almost all of the important ones out of the ball park .. he's a no-brainer great horse... and look at all the trouble he had getting into the Hall of Fame.
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#28
10-26-2009, 08:57 PM
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__________________
please use generalizations and non-truths when arguing your side, thank you
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#29
10-26-2009, 09:02 PM
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She had great ability and was an awesome figure horse for sure ... but her case for greatness is a cut or two below Lava Man and two or three cuts above Rock Hard Ten.
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#30
10-26-2009, 09:09 PM
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 Her last two races at SA were horrible for her, but her earlier 3 races received beyers of 101, 105 and 108 - that is like freak figures in this day and age! Speaking of Lava Man...for me, he sort of fits into the latter part of your first post where your judgment on a particular horse can depend on circumstances and connections.
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#33
10-26-2009, 09:32 PM
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1. Ability as a dirt horse (Elite) 2. Ability to beat good horses (beat super horses with ease) 3. Ability to run fast figures (Elite) 4. Ability to be consistant and hold form (Fail) 5. Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances (Never faced any major adversity in his big races) Probably too many flaws to consider a great horse ... but certainly an all-time great talent.
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#35
10-27-2009, 08:33 AM
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#36
10-27-2009, 11:05 AM
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#37
10-27-2009, 11:09 AM
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You missed Tiznow, Invasor and most importantly Ghostzapper who is probably the best horse since Spectacular Bid
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#38
10-27-2009, 11:54 AM
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I don't need to see a lot of races to know what I see a couple of times. For me, I think great horses do one of two things. Either they beat really good horses or they run really fast races. I like horses that do it on more than one surface but so many aren't given the chance to show if they could or not that I don't think it's fair to give horses that were given a chance extra credit. For that same reason, I don't give extra credit to the names of the races the horses run in. That simply has no bearing on their ability. I wouldn't punish Zenyatta for her connections not allowing her to run against the boys. I wouldn't give Rachel extra credit for facing older males in the Woodward when facing 3yos in the Travers would have been the tougher race.
Ability as a 2yo Ability as a 3yo Ability as an older horse I only judge them by when they actually run. I wouldn't downgrade Curlin because he didn't run as a 2yo. My only requirement is that in whatever years they run, they run great. Ability as a sprinter Ability as a miler Ability as a router A lot of people only judge them by how well they do at 10f. I don't think that's the only distance that we run races at. In fact, the majority of races in this country are under 8f. It's my feeling that it's tougher to be dominant over a more inclusive group than it is to be dominant over a select group. There's only 10 horses that can run 10f in any given year. There's 10000 that can run 6f. Whatever you do, whether it be sprints, miles, 16f, grass, dirt, whatever it is, be the best at it. Ability as a dirt horse-important Ability as a synthetic horse-completely 100% not important Ability as a turf horse-important Ability to win major races-not important Ability to beat good horses-extremely important Ability to run fast figures-very important Ability to win with dominance-slightly important Ability to stay sound and race often without big time gaps between starts-not important Ability to carry high weight or give weight away to good horses-important Ability to have success as a stallion or broodmare-completely unimportant Ability to be consistant and not go in and out of top form-very important Ability to handle different surfaces-not important Ability to handle a wide range of distances-not important Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances-important Ability to ship and consistantly run near top form away from home circuit-slightly important Ability to have participated in a lot of major races-not important Ability of the trainer.-not important although the example you mentioned makes me reevaluate that opinion some. Ability of the jockey.-completely irrelevant Competence of the management.-usually not important unless they are putting their horse in position to fail, ala Arazi. Visual likability.-not important
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#39
10-27-2009, 03:27 PM
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I agree about Tiznow, and Invasor " I think Bernardini was much better though" Giants Causeway was also great.
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#40
10-28-2009, 08:37 PM
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I made the pilgrimage to NY to see that JCGC with Cigar and Skip Away. My almost 3-yr-old son had become a fan of Skip Away from watching Thoroughbred Digest with me for the previous 6 months. We got some good photos of my son at the walking ring with Skip Away and Cigar in the background. Skip Away did beat Cigar by a nose that day, but maybe the 5 lb weight break had something to do with it! --Dunbar
__________________
Curlin and Hard Spun finish 1,2 in the 2007 BC Classic, demonstrating how competing in all three Triple Crown races ruins a horse for the rest of the year...see avatar photo from REUTERS/Lucas Jackson
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