McLaughlin with 3 positives; Gets 30 day ban..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Dutrow by ALL accounts is an elite horseman, when he is on his game. While is certainly has had substantial issue on and off the track, he will never be just a chemist. That doesnt mean I exclude him as a cheater just that I recognize he could suceed in the industry tomorrow if you couldn't give a horse a vitamin nevermind meds.

Is there a better interview or more open personality in the sport?

I am just curious, if drugs weren't in the equation and were wiped off of the earth who would be the best Trainer/horseman today and who would be the best Trainer statswise from a winning % point of view?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Dutrow by ALL accounts is an elite horseman, when he is on his game. While is certainly has had substantial issue on and off the track, he will never be just a chemist. That doesnt mean I exclude him as a cheater just that I recognize he could suceed in the industry tomorrow if you couldn't give a horse a vitamin nevermind meds.

Is there a better interview or more open personality in the sport?

seriously how in the world could you know any of this to be true?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by CSC

I am just curious, if drugs weren't in the equation and were wiped off of the earth who would be the best Trainer/horseman today and who would be the best Trainer statswise from a winning % point of view?

Cannon Shell.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Cannon Shell.

Yeah I put that one right on the tape for you to tap in.

Edit: I'm sure Cannon shell's win % would perk up from the fall out. He's had a couple 2nds I think that may have turned out to be wins...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Yeah I put that one right on the tape for you to tap in.

Edit: I'm sure Cannon shell's win % would perk up from the fall out. He's had a couple 2nds I think that may have been wins...

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

seriously how in the world could you know any of this to be true?

Well when you hear it from HoF quality owners and trainers and ALL are 100% in accord and you respect the opinions as such then I believe it to be true.
You know like when you go to a Dr and he tell you have virus and and not a batercial infection and he has been right 20 times before so you respect his professional opinion. Or when you hire a trainer and he tells you that yearling is well bred and perfectly made you respect his opinion because he has had success in the past.. It's called trust and credibilty.. I trust the people who have sang the praises of Dutrow and is horsemanship. They all have said on his game he is nothing short of ELITE.

BTW this doesn't mean he hasn't been a cheater or won't cheat again.

But as for knowning if the guy can train..I am 100% positive few if any are better..

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Hmmm... No spewing or vitriol about McLaughlin based on this? Stunning. Only seems to confirm that there is a demarcation of sorts about who is villainous in the taking of edges...

Steve: I think another big reason for the diminishing lack of interest in response to trainers cheating is the large amount of trainers doing it and getting caught with positives. Its getting to be like baseball where the trainers not using illegal substances are probably in the minority. Its almost become the norm for trainers to use, just to be able to "keep up" with the guys who are notorious for illegal positives and gaudy winning percentages.

Exactly the same thing in baseball. At some point you have to wonder as a professional baseball player, do I stay clean and get penalized for it and lose out on millions of dollars from big performance induced contracts? Or do I do everything I can to "keep up"?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by CSC

I am just curious, if drugs weren't in the equation and were wiped off of the earth who would be the best Trainer/horseman today and who would be the best Trainer statswise from a winning % point of view?

Gary Stevens?

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Gary Stevens?

I was thinking Jamie Sanders.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

How do you get horses with talent? The HorseTalent Depot?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Well when you hear it from HoF quality owners and trainers and ALL are 100% in accord and you respect the opinions as such then I believe it to be true.
You know like when you go to a Dr and he tell you have virus and and not a batercial infection and he has been right 20 times before so you respect his professional opinion. Or when you hire a trainer and he tells you that yearling is well bred and perfectly made you respect his opinion because he has had success in the past.. It's called trust and credibilty.. I trust the people who have sang the praises of Dutrow and is horsemanship. They all have said on his game he is nothing short of ELITE.

BTW this doesn't mean he hasn't been a cheater or won't cheat again.

But as for knowning if the guy can train..I am 100% positive few if any are better..

hall of fame owners? that is new.

Dutrow has been has no track record where he doesnt have medication problems. Any "theory' about his horsemanship is merely speculation often by people who have a biased view of the situation.

Saying that a guy can really train when he chooses not to cheat is hardly a resounding endorsement except in the morally bankrupt world of horseracing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

How do you get horses with talent? The HorseTalent Depot?

Trick rich owners into thinking I will cheat if I want to but can really train if i choose not to cheat?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Hmmm... No spewing or vitriol about McLaughlin based on this? Stunning. Only seems to confirm that there is a demarcation of sorts about who is villainous in the taking of edges...

how about same deal, different day

Being able to navigate the drug portion of handicapping has been become a skill itself.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

I always wanted to know the answer to this question from a Trainer like yourself Chuck, Trainers that stick within the rules....what goes on in the head of horsemen when you line up against a Aubrey Cody or Brett Calhoun horse before the gates even open? Is it one of exasperation at times...

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Trick rich owners into thinking I will cheat if I want to but can really train if i choose not to cheat?

Chuck: You are like the Derek Jeter of horse racing. Good for you to have morals!

[CSC]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Gary Stevens?

I know one former jock, Mark Guidry is atleast 1 ahead of Stevens at the moment.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

I always wanted to know the answer to this question from a Trainer like yourself Chuck, Trainers that stick within the rules....what goes on in the head of horsemen when you line up against a Aubrey Cody or Brett Calhoun horse before the gates even open? Is it one of exasperation at times...

On what basis are you inferring that Brett Calhoun is a cheater?

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

On what basis are you inferring that Brett Calhoun is a cheater?

NT

I'm inferring he has had extraordinary win %'s at one or more times during his career. I think you can use common sense to speculate how he does it, at worse raising a Spockian eyebrow is healthy IMO when one pumps money into this game on a regular basis.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm inferring he has had extraordinary win %'s at one or more times during his career. I think you can use common sense to speculate how he does it, at worse raising a Spockian eyebrow is healthy IMO when one pumps money into this game on a regular basis.

Putting BWS and Autrey on the same plateau is ridiculous. Simply a high winning percentage should not earn a trainer allegations of cheating, especially when you deal with the type of stock Calhoun does.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Putting BWS and Autrey on the same plateau is ridiculous. Simply a high winning percentage should not earn a trainer allegations of cheating, especially when you deal with the type of stock Calhoun does.

NT

Let's put it this way, with what we have seen recently any Trainer who has gaudy numbers will be looked at with some interest. I agree with you on this point, the few that play fairly shouldn't be penalyzed from a perspective viewpoint, but the reality now is most look at the game with some scepticism.

The term 'juicer' is so mainstream now that everyone who follows the game will probably come up with the same 5 Trainers in their minds right away.