Lets hope Halladay is a playoff stud like Lee

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

So while of course all of us fans would have loved to keep Lee.. that means we would NOT have Halladay (they werent going to do the deal without getting some prospects back). and in 2011 Hamels would be our #1 guy and we'd have no Lee or Halladay.

What would have prevented the Phillies from signing Halladay as a free agent in 2011?

[Smooth Operator]

Spin this HORRIBLE call any way you want, Antichrist32


When they have a real shot to get two rings in three years … winners GO FOR IT with everything they have!!!

They don't stand around like a couple of little girls worrying about "the future".



UNBELIEVEABLE that they could let this guy go


Khrist, is this Reid-Lurie all over again??????????????????

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

You mean as opposed to if that happens with Halladay!!! Halladay gets hit by a bus tomorrow and is in a wheelchair the rest of his life and they are out $60 million plus the buyout for the option. That happens to Cliff Lee and they are out $9 million. You can't justify certain moves on the worst case scenario while ignoring the worst case scenario for other moves.

I was responding soley to the point Aunty made about waiting to the deadline thinking that they would have gotten more for Lee if they traded him then. Also I mentioned that for some reason they stunk they probably would have gotten less for him also, so it wasn't only a look at the worst case scenario.
Personally like I stated I would have rolled the dice and tried to keep them both for this season. Possibly making it back/winning the World Series would offset losing Lee for nothing. They should have went for it.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I was responding soley to the point Aunty made about waiting to the deadline thinking that they would have gotten more for Lee if they traded him then. Also I mentioned that for some reason they stunk they probably would have gotten less for him also, so it wasn't only a look at the worst case scenario.
Personally like I stated I would have rolled the dice and tried to keep them both for this season. Possibly making it back/winning the World Series would offset losing Lee for nothing. They should have went for it.

The main problem is I think the $6 million the Phillies got for Lee is worth far more than the 3 prospects they got from Seattle. If they got Ackley or Saunders it would have been one thing but the three guys they got are not even remotely close to the top 50 prospects in the nation. You don't give up Cliff Lee for that to save $9 million and get another $6 million in cash. That is just a kick in the balls to your season ticket holders. They didn't refuel their minor league system, all they did was put $15 million into their pockets in exchange for giving up World Series favoritism.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

What would have prevented the Phillies from signing Halladay as a free agent in 2011?

would have cost us more $$ then...

come on now. Signing Halladay right now for Drabeck and Taylor was a TERRIFIC move for the Phillies. An absolute steal for the extension also (if 20mill per year can possibly be a steal)

The trade in question is the Lee trade. Obviously the fans wanted it NOT to happen. I dont think Amaro really wanted it to happen but nobody wanted Blanton and we made the mistake with Moyer.

We are still a better team now than we were last year. Halladay is > Lee (though not by too much).

Only in Philly can people complain when they just landed the best pitcher in baseball!

I'm not too upset, excited to have Halladay.. bummed about Lee moving but if he wants to "retire as a Phillie" like he said yesterday he can come take less $ from us next year!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Spin this HORRIBLE call any way you want, Antichrist32


When they have a real shot to get two rings in three years … winners GO FOR IT with everything they have!!!

They don't stand around like a couple of little girls worrying about "the future".



UNBELIEVEABLE that they could let this guy go


Khrist, is this Reid-Lurie all over again??????????????????

We have just as good of a shot to get back there next year as we did last year. What, you think by adding Halladay and Polanco now we are going to miss the playoffs?? (granted anything can happen)

We are a BETTER TEAM RIGHT NOW THAN THE PAST TWO BACK TO BACK NL PENNANT WINNING TEAMS

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The main problem is I think the $6 million the Phillies got for Lee is worth far more than the 3 prospects they got from Seattle. If they got Ackley or Saunders it would have been one thing but the three guys they got are not even remotely close to the top 50 prospects in the nation. You don't give up Cliff Lee for that to save $9 million and get another $6 million in cash. That is just a kick in the balls to your season ticket holders. They didn't refuel their minor league system, all they did was put $15 million into their pockets in exchange for giving up World Series favoritism.

People forget that Halladay can pitch on 3 days rest (go 3 of 7 in a 7 game series) and we have upgraded our 3rd base.

We HAVE to be the favorites to get back to the series, and we are better off now with Halladay.

& the Phils have said all along that they dont want their salary to be above 140mil. They stuck to it. I really cant be upset with this move or this team after the past two years.

As much as I wish they would have kept Lee for one more year.. they did the right thing in getting Halladay.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

People forget that Halladay can pitch on 3 days rest (go 3 of 7 in a 7 game series) and we have upgraded our 3rd base.

We HAVE to be the favorites to get back to the series, and we are better off now with Halladay.

Two question marks, back end of the rotation and Brad Lidge. The Phills are a very talented team, but are they going to have to depend on the two headed monster of Martinez/Moyer to give them clutch innings down the stretch? Also which Brett Myers will show up or will he be back in the pen? Then there is Hamels.......Finally, who will be closing games for them come September? If he is anything like he was in his first season then you should feel pretty confident. If he's like the guy from last year, then you might encounter some real problems.
I think they are a very talented team, but I'm really not sure you can state that they are better right now, then teams that won and went to the series the last 2 seasons.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Two question marks, back end of the rotation and Brad Lidge. The Phills are a very talented team, but are they going to have to depend on the two headed monster of Martinez/Moyer to give them clutch innings down the stretch? Also which Brett Myers will show up or will he be back in the pen? Then there is Hamels.......Finally, who will be closing games for them come September? If he is anything like he was in his first season then you should feel pretty confident. If he's like the guy from last year, then you might encounter some real problems.
I think they are a very talented team, but I'm really not sure you can state that they are better right now, then teams that won and went to the series the last 2 seasons.

How the heck are they not better than last year?? Polanco is a upgrade over Feliz and Halladay is a slight upgrade over Lee. Other than that we are exactly the same.. except our bench is a lot BETTER than last year. (our bench went something like 1/32 in the whole post season last year.. not good)

I expect Happ to be freaking awesome again this year.. (glad they traded Drebeck and not Happ)

the 5th starter and some bullpen guys need to be figured out.

I really wouldnt be surprised to see them make another mid season trade for another starter like they've done the past two years.

Lidge sucked last year and we still ran away with the Pennant. He cant possibly be any worse. And if he sucks just as bad and Manuel puts him in as closer in the Post Season AGAIn than Manuel should be fired.

Hamels also cant possibly be any worse than last year. Amaro is really basing this trade around Hamels being 2008 Hamels. I'm not confident but am hopefull.

Myers is not on this team anymore.

Look to see them pick up a Smoltz type guy and another bullpen pitcher who can close if needed.

Also we need to sign Chan Ho Park and Durbin.. big time.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

How the heck are they not better than last year?? Polanco is a upgrade over Feliz and Halladay is a slight upgrade over Lee. Other than that we are exactly the same.. except our bench is a lot BETTER than last year. (our bench went something like 1/32 in the whole post season last year.. not good)

I expect Happ to be freaking awesome again this year.. (glad they traded Drebeck and not Happ)

the 5th starter and some bullpen guys need to be figured out.

I really wouldnt be surprised to see them make another mid season trade for another starter like they've done the past two years.

Lidge sucked last year and we still ran away with the Pennant. He cant possibly be any worse. And if he sucks just as bad and Manuel puts him in as closer in the Post Season AGAIn than Manuel should be fired.

Hamels also cant possibly be any worse than last year. Amaro is really basing this trade around Hamels being 2008 Hamels. I'm not confident but am hopefull.

Myers is not on this team anymore.

Look to see them pick up a Smoltz type guy and another bullpen pitcher who can close if needed.

Also we need to sign Chan Ho Park and Durbin.. big time.

Granted Polonco is an upgrade. Halladay is also an upgrade, but you already had a guy in that spot who was comparable (Halladay is better but Lee was no slouch, either way you had a #1 stud/ace).
I agree with you about Happ, he could turn out to be a good one.
But I just think you are basing the rest on the fact that they came close to winning it again last year, with several of the guys just having awful seasons. So you automatically think that they will be a better team this year because they can't play any worse than they did last season. But what if those guys regress again?
I'm not saying that they aren't a good team, but there are obvious question marks reguarding their pitching that warrents consideration.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Granted Polonco is an upgrade. Halladay is also an upgrade, but you already had a guy in that spot who was comparable (Halladay is better but Lee was no slouch, either way you had a #1 stud/ace).
I agree with you about Happ, he could turn out to be a good one.
But I just think you are basing the rest on the fact that they came close to winning it again last year, with several of the guys just having awful seasons. So you automatically think that they will be a better team this year because they can't play any worse than they did last season. But what if those guys regress again?
I'm not saying that they aren't a good team, but there are obvious question marks reguarding their pitching that warrents consideration.

Can Lidge and Hamels possibly regress any further? I guess Lidge could blow every save he's involved in.. but you really cant get any worse than those two did given their talent.

Hamels pitched tons of innings in 2008, he won the WS MVP and then was involved in a lot of extra activites on the off season. He admitted he wasnt in shape when spring training started AND he was nagged with injuries all year. He may not be the 2008 Hamels, but he WILL be better than 2009 Hamels this upcoming year.

We will be picking up more pitchers before the season starts, and we have some guys on our Farm that could do okay in the pen.

I am basing my statement of us being better on the fact that our lineup is better than last year, our bench is better than last year, and our #1 pitcher is better than last year. Our 2-5 pitching and pen will end up being at least equal but most likely better than last year.


Also, I was really responding to idiot Booth Operator who's a complete dumbass and knows nothing about sports. How he can root for Philly teams and then root for USC is beyond me. How he thinks getting Roy Halladay makes the Phils "like the eagles" is also beyond me. Booth should be a Cowboys/Mutts fan not a Philly fan.

[SniperSB23]

The Rockies went to the World Series in 2007, improved in the offseason and finished 14 games under .500 the next season. The NL is always so balanced without the elite teams so whoever gets hot down the stretch winds up in the World Series. The Phillies had a chance to completely offset that and become the elite National League team and opted for $15 million and some second rate prospects instead. It's a cheap move, plain and simple. They remain a top contender in the National League but they could have been THE contender.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The Rockies went to the World Series in 2007, improved in the offseason and finished 14 games under .500 the next season. The NL is always so balanced without the elite teams so whoever gets hot down the stretch winds up in the World Series. The Phillies had a chance to completely offset that and become the elite National League team and opted for $15 million and some second rate prospects instead. It's a cheap move, plain and simple. They remain a top contender in the National League but they could have been THE contender.

They will be the preseason favorite for the NL easily. And in the top 3 favs to win the Series out of all of baseball. Any team that goes to back to back WS is an elite team. We have some clutch hitters that love to be in the big spots. That seperates us from other contenders (like the Rockies)

I completely agree that trading Lee was a cheap move and should not have been done. But people keep forgetting that we do have the BEST pitcher in baseball now.

If we kept Lee and none of these trades happened nobody would be down on the Phillies. They made some moves that not only make us better next year but for the next 4 years. They did the right thing getting Halladay. If Lee needed to be sacrificed to get Halladay it was the right move. I really wish they would have man upped and paid Lee his 9 mil. But hey, I'm not going to be as greedy as Yankee fans.

Its not going to be easy to get to a 3rd straight World Series. I'm not sure if its been done with an NL team in the history of baseball.. and if it has it was 50+ years ago. But we are in the right position to make that run.

remember our lineup is still going to be:

Rollins, Polanco, Utley, Howard, Werth, Ibanez, Victorino, Ruiz. Best lineup in baseball. If they were smart they'd put Victorino in the leadoff spot and Rollins in the 7th spot but they have this thing with loyalty that sometimes goes too far (pitching Lidge in the WS).

[Smooth Operator]

Of course they cheaped out, Sniper

It was a bush-league call … like we've come to expect from the ringless 'geniuses' who run the show with the football team.

Spin-maestro losers like Antichrist32 always have a tough time handling the truth...

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

They will be the preseason favorite for the NL easily. And in the top 3 favs to win the Series out of all of baseball. Any team that goes to back to back WS is an elite team. We have some clutch hitters that love to be in the big spots. That seperates us from other contenders (like the Rockies)

I completely agree that trading Lee was a cheap move and should not have been done. But people keep forgetting that we do have the BEST pitcher in baseball now.

If we kept Lee and none of these trades happened nobody would be down on the Phillies. They made some moves that not only make us better next year but for the next 4 years. They did the right thing getting Halladay. If Lee needed to be sacrificed to get Halladay it was the right move. I really wish they would have man upped and paid Lee his 9 mil. But hey, I'm not going to be as greedy as Yankee fans.

Its not going to be easy to get to a 3rd straight World Series. I'm not sure if its been done with an NL team in the history of baseball.. and if it has it was 50+ years ago. But we are in the right position to make that run.

remember our lineup is still going to be:

Rollins, Polanco, Utley, Howard, Werth, Ibanez, Victorino, Ruiz. Best lineup in baseball. If they were smart they'd put Victorino in the leadoff spot and Rollins in the 7th spot but they have this thing with loyalty that sometimes goes too far (pitching Lidge in the WS).

If you gave me the over/under on games played in 2010 with the line set as their games played in 2009 I would bet the under on all of them and make a lot of money. No one stays that healthy two years in a row, especially not when they played additional games in the postseason.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If you gave me the over/under on games played in 2010 with the line set as their games played in 2009 I would bet the under on all of them and make a lot of money. No one stays that healthy two years in a row, especially not when they played additional games in the postseason.

Utley and Ibanez were both hurt at certain times last year

As well as Hamels and other pitchers.

I'm not making predictions based on assuming guys will get injured. There are steriods to make you heal better as well.

And we picked up a bench guy who will be able to give Rollins and Utley more games off in 2010.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Of course they cheaped out, Sniper

It was a bush-league call … like we've come to expect from the ringless 'geniuses' who run the show with the football team.

Spin-maestro losers like Antichrist32 always have a tough time handling the truth...

The truth being that we are still the team to beat in the NL?


The Eagles are nothing like the Phillies. the Phillies have guys who LOVE clutch situations, the Eagles have guys that puke.

What the f is your problem?

Do you think Halladay sucks or something?

You sound like a Yankee fan.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Utley and Ibanez were both hurt at certain times last year

As well as Hamels and other pitchers.

I'm not making predictions based on assuming guys will get injured. There are steriods to make you heal better as well.

And we picked up a bench guy who will be able to give Rollins and Utley more games off in 2010.

Utley played 156 games last year. Ibanez played 134 which is a lot to expect from him next year at his age. And yes, steroids do help them heal. The Mets need to get that guy that was supplying everyone in the Mitchell Report back.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Utley played 156 games last year. Ibanez played 134 which is a lot to expect from him next year at his age. And yes, steroids do help them heal. The Mets need to get that guy that was supplying everyone in the Mitchell Report back.

Ibanez had a great 1st half of the season.. maybe in the top 3 best in baseball, got hurt and was not the same after that.

Utley played 156 games because there was noone competent to replace him a few games. We fixed that. He has a bad hip. He just plays hurt alot. Tough as nails.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The main problem is I think the $6 million the Phillies got for Lee is worth far more than the 3 prospects they got from Seattle. If they got Ackley or Saunders it would have been one thing but the three guys they got are not even remotely close to the top 50 prospects in the nation. You don't give up Cliff Lee for that to save $9 million and get another $6 million in cash. That is just a kick in the balls to your season ticket holders. They didn't refuel their minor league system, all they did was put $15 million into their pockets in exchange for giving up World Series favoritism.