8/24 (SAR): Travers, King's Bishop, Test (G1's), Ballston Spa (G2)

[Aly-Sheba]

Originally Posted by pointman

A stunning display of incompetent riding by Mike Smith today.

I'm not sure what race you were watching but P.M. broke awkward and bobbled coming out of that gate, witch took him out of game. Incompetent would be Durkin not being to call the winner of the Travers and him not being able to call Central Banker 3rd in the King Bishop!

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Aly-Sheba

I'm not sure what race you were watching but P.M. broke awkward and bobbled coming out of that gate, witch took him out of game. Incompetent would be Durkin not being to call the winner of the Travers and him not being able to call Central Banker 3rd in the King Bishop!

The only think I think Mike should have done differently is try to cut the corner on My Happy Face, other than that its just the way races unfolded.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Aly-Sheba

I'm not sure what race you were watching but P.M. broke awkward and bobbled coming out of that gate, witch took him out of game. Incompetent would be Durkin not being to call the winner of the Travers and him not being able to call Central Banker 3rd in the King Bishop!

I mentioned on the selections thread after the race that I missed the bad break initially. However, the fact that he didn't go to the front on Pianist and didn't take Let Em Shine to the rail on the lead and try to wire them is mind boggling to me.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by pointman

I mentioned on the selections thread after the race that I missed the bad break initially. However, the fact that he didn't go to the front on Pianist and didn't take Let Em Shine to the rail on the lead and try to wire them is mind boggling to me.

I bet Pianist, dream run really but that gutless horse would not go by, you dont get a better trip really.

Let Em Shine was being asked very early on then was practically eased, I suppose if he went to the whip he could have gotten past Mentor Crane, maybe.

If these races were run with machines and piloted by robots maybe everything would play out in perfect orchestra but that is very much not in the case.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I bet Pianist, dream run really but that gutless horse would not go by, you dont get a better trip really.

Let Em Shine was being asked very early on then was practically eased, I suppose if he went to the whip he could have gotten past Mentor Crane, maybe.

If these races were run with machines and piloted by robots maybe everything would play out in perfect orchestra but that is very much not in the case.

Smith didn't try to get Pianist in front and I believe if he sent early Pianist was faster than the 1.

He had the lead on Let Em Shine but for some odd reason he didn't take to the rail to shut off and force Mentor Cane to go outside of him. Neither needed to be a machine. Smith just needed to have a smart strategy. He didn't on either of those horses plain and simple.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by pointman

Smith didn't try to get Pianist in front and I believe if he sent early Pianist was faster than the 1.

He had the lead on Let Em Shine but for some odd reason he didn't take to the rail to shut off and force Mentor Cane to go outside of him. Neither needed to be a machine. Smith just needed to have a smart strategy. He didn't on either of those horses plain and simple.

You should give some tips before the races are run.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

You should give some tips before the races are run.

Seriously?

I'll try to dumb it down for you. Both the turf course and main track were playing to an inside speed bias. On paper, IMO, Smith had the fastest horse out of the gate who could get to the lead in both those races, a tactical advantage the way the courses were playing.

On Pianist he didn't try to, he let a horse he could have outrun to the lead get the lead and took his horse's best weapon away from him.

On Let Em Shine he had the lead and could have chosen to take his horse over to the rail on the best part of the track and let his horse do what he wants to do, outrun his competition, close the rail and force Mentor Cane to the outside and chase him. Instead he let Mentor Cane take the rail and tried to chase him.

Do you think either Pianist or Let Em Shine is a horse that wants to rate and chase outside another speed horse?

[cakes44]

WTC hasn't put together 2 good races in a row for quite some time until today. Might be turning a corner and become the real deal.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by pointman

Seriously?

I'll try to dumb it down for you. Both the turf course and main track were playing to an inside speed bias. On paper, IMO, Smith had the fastest horse out of the gate who could get to the lead in both those races, a tactical advantage the way the courses were playing.

On Pianist he didn't try to, he let a horse he could have outrun to the lead get the lead and took his horse's best weapon away from him.

On Let Em Shine he had the lead and could have chosen to take his horse over to the rail on the best part of the track and let his horse do what he wants to do, outrun his competition, close the rail and force Mentor Cane to the outside and chase him. Instead he let Mentor Cane take the rail and try to chase him.

Do you think either Pianist or Let Em Shine is a horse that wants to rate and chase outside another speed horse?

Well, he must have thought speed was playing well on the turf before the 5th race. He was going to be on the lead that race or wipe out his horse trying.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by pointman

Seriously?

I'll try to dumb it down for you. Both the turf course and main track were playing to an inside speed bias. On paper, IMO, Smith had the fastest horse out of the gate who could get to the lead in both those races, a tactical advantage the way the courses were playing.

On Pianist he didn't try to, he let a horse he could have outrun to the lead get the lead and took his horse's best weapon away from him.

On Let Em Shine he had the lead and could have chosen to take his horse over to the rail on the best part of the track and let his horse do what he wants to do, outrun his competition, close the rail and force Mentor Cane to the outside and chase him. Instead he let Mentor Cane take the rail and tried to chase him.

Do you think either Pianist or Let Em Shine is a horse that wants to rate and chase outside another speed horse?

Thanks for dumbing down your opinion for me.

I dont think Pianist was chasing anything, I think she was just in a workout more or less and then a sprint to the wire. If you think she was so compromised she will be a great bet for you next time.

Let Em Shine certainly would have been beaten only 29 lengths instead of 30 had he gunned to the lead.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Thanks for dumbing down your opinion for me.

I dont think Pianist was chasing anything, I think she was just in a workout more or less and then a sprint to the wire. If you think she was so compromised she will be a great bet for you next time.

Let Em Shine certainly would have been beaten only 29 lengths instead of 30 had he gunned to the lead.

You are entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't bet Pianist back unless she had a the kind of tactical advantage she had today.

I'm not sure Let Em Shine would have won, but certainly may have if he took advantage of the biased part of the track and let the horse do what it wants to do. That's just my opinion. You have the right to disagree and bet accordingly.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by pointman

Smith didn't try to get Pianist in front and I believe if he sent early Pianist was faster than the 1.

He had the lead on Let Em Shine but for some odd reason he didn't take to the rail to shut off and force Mentor Cane to go outside of him. Neither needed to be a machine. Smith just needed to have a smart strategy. He didn't on either of those horses plain and simple.

Was the rail that good? Orb.

[Scav]

The very fact that I left off Laughing and used Miz Ida instead, knowing speed was outstanding, should ban me from handicapping/wagering for a full year. Cost me a $1 P4....Priceless!

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Was the rail that good? Orb.

Maybe Orb is just that average.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Maybe Orb is just that average.

Supposedly Orb doesn't like being down inside. Then there's the whole 'coming off a 77 day layoff in a G1 against the other top 3yos while racing at 1 1/4 and finishing fairly close despite said layoff' thing. He finished right in there with the top 3 from the Jim Dandy having not had that race in him. It doesn't mean that but for the excuses he'd win all the time, but for God's sake he's not average. In his two races at Saratoga he's been 3rd both times, the first featured him losing to Violence and Titletown Five in his first attempt to break his maiden. Maybe he's not in love with it, who knows. It's not like he's losing to bums.

Let's take a minute and appreciate how 2 of the top 3 in the Travers ran in all 3 TC races and the just barely 4th place finisher was in 2 of 3 TC races.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Supposedly Orb doesn't like being down inside. Then there's the whole 'coming off a 77 day layoff in a G1 against the other top 3yos while racing at 1 1/4 and finishing fairly close despite said layoff' thing. He finished right in there with the top 3 from the Jim Dandy having not had that race in him. It doesn't mean that but for the excuses he'd win all the time, but for God's sake he's not average. In his two races at Saratoga he's been 3rd both times, the first featured him losing to Violence and Titletown Five in his first attempt to break his maiden. Maybe he's not in love with it, who knows. It's not like he's losing to bums.

Let's take a minute and appreciate how 2 of the top 3 in the Travers ran in all 3 TC races and the just barely 4th place finisher was in 2 of 3 TC races.

Average was in terms of Derby winners and potential one time triple crown locks. Obviously in terms of the 20,000 horses bred in his crop he is vastly superior and one of the greats.

He had a dream trip and ran 3rd, depending on the spot I will have to look at it like that.

[King Glorious]

I don't think much of Orb but I can't help but feel like he would have won this race if he hadn't been compromised by his trainer. Coming into the lane, he had every look of a winner but he got tired and I feel like with a prep under his belt, he would have gotten the job done. There are two ways to look at it. He'll be better next time (Jockey Club Gold Cup?) and then the BC Classic will be his third race so could be his best. The other way to see it is that even if he is better in the next two, it probably won't be good enough to beat what he's likely to face and he missed a golden opportunity to take a huge race and possibly lock up a divisional title by looking ahead and forgetting the present.

[alysheba4]

saratoga is without question the hardest ( dirt track ) to cap.....i raised the white flag after today.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

saratoga is without question the hardest ( dirt track ) to cap.....i raised the white flag after today.

Their turf races kill me. I almost pray for a bias so I can narrow down the usual 6 that have a shot to at least the speed horses.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think much of Orb but I can't help but feel like he would have won this race if he hadn't been compromised by his trainer. Coming into the lane, he had every look of a winner but he got tired and I feel like with a prep under his belt, he would have gotten the job done. There are two ways to look at it. He'll be better next time (Jockey Club Gold Cup?) and then the BC Classic will be his third race so could be his best. The other way to see it is that even if he is better in the next two, it probably won't be good enough to beat what he's likely to face and he missed a golden opportunity to take a huge race and possibly lock up a divisional title by looking ahead and forgetting the present.

We can guess that a prep would have made a difference, but so would have more pace. I though Orb ran pretty all things considered. That said, Palace Malice was still the best horse in the race.