Praying for Cash retired

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The bottomline is that horses are still breaking down regularly....who cares aboyt image of how and where they break down?...Most are dead soon anyway because most are too cheap to take care of if they have no revenue potential - and thats just the plain truth....

So what we have esentialy done with the implementation of Polytrack is percievably cleaned-up our public opinion by the lack of breakdowns ON THE TRACK, and for that we have to trade the entire way we breed horses and taint the entire tradition of our game?

...thats a trade I bet 90% of horse fans who understand the entire sport would not agree to make - But the deal with the devil is unfortunately in process

who cares about public perception? do you know anything about marketing joel...I'm certain that you do since you are an authority on every other aspect of horse racing...do you not think that those who market the game and attempt on a daily basis to bring in new fans care about the way catstrophic breakdowns are portayed in the media? Whatever the end result with cheap claimers you have got to have your head up your @ss if you don't think the front office cares about the difference between what happened to this horse (who sustained a survivable injury) and say, what happened to Go for Wand.
And without the influx of new fans and bettors (who will adapt to the surface) you will eventually have no breeding industry. So ye,s maintaining a favorable public image is paramount to the survival of the sport, and if that means poly track you should get used to it.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

And I completely disagree with you.

[sham]

I would submit to all that there have been an insufficient number of races to draw conclusions about the safty of artificial surfaces. We'll know soon enough.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Polytrack was invented by Osama bin Laden. If you install, train, race, or bet on it, you are funding terrorism!

Elvis told me this after he landed his UFO at Area 51 and stopped by my house, in a black helicopter no less, on his way to a super secret Free Masons meeting. He also told me who the international bankers and transnational corporations have set up to win the BC Classic, but I was sworn to secrecy, so don't ask.

This post is hilarious... by the way, how is Elvis doing?

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I would say this is a better arguement if we knew for a fact that Praying for Cash trained and raced exclusively on Polytrack, the fact of the matter is he didn't. I don't think it's been determined the Polytrack caused the breakdown, same with Noble Stella, she trained for years on dirt, it is probably a case for both of them that the injuries just came to the surface with time, certainly not immediately upon setting foot on Polytrack.

This horse ran on hard tracks at Gulfstream Park and wnet all up and down the eastern sea-board without any problems running his arse off in races like the Haskell at Monmouth - and yet in his first start over the Polytrack he breaks down and is done.......hmmmmmm....safer?

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

And I completely disagree with you.

And I respectfully with you.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

This horse ran on hard tracks at Gulfstream Park and wnet all up and down the eastern sea-board without any problems running his arse off in races like the Haskell at Monmouth - and yet in his first start over the Polytrack he breaks down and is done.......hmmmmmm....safer?

wasn't it also his first start for his new trainer?

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

This horse ran on hard tracks at Gulfstream Park and wnet all up and down the eastern sea-board without any problems running his arse off in races like the Haskell at Monmouth - and yet in his first start over the Polytrack he breaks down and is done.......hmmmmmm....safer?

This is exactly my point, you don't think racing on those hard tracks can just as easily have caused wear and tear and just became the proverbial straw? If he ran on nothing but Poly than you have a point, the fact is he hardly did at all.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

I still am a traditionalist though, and don't advocate polytrack except in those extreme circumstances and for training tracks.

Originally Posted by paisjpq

who cares about public perception? do you know anything about marketing joel...I'm certain that you do since you are an authority on every other aspect of horse racing...do you not think that those who market the game and attempt on a daily basis to bring in new fans care about the way catstrophic breakdowns are portayed in the media? Whatever the end result with cheap claimers you have got to have your head up your @ss if you don't think the front office cares about the difference between what happened to this horse (who sustained a survivable injury) and say, what happened to Go for Wand.
And without the influx of new fans and bettors (who will adapt to the surface) you will eventually have no breeding industry. So ye,s maintaining a favorable public image is paramount to the survival of the sport, and if that means poly track you should get used to it.

It's funny that you made my point exactly...yes, I have a marketing degree, actually, and I worked in the marketing dept. at Churchill Downs Inc. for a couple of years, and as a marketing guy I would say that making outcomes of races less predictable and more phony, building champions with inferior pedigrees that like to run on rubber, ruining the tradition of our game and the classic bloodlines, and running the core customer away by telling him that all of the handicappingt tools that he acquired over a lifetime ar now all irrelvant and you have to re-learn how to play this game - I would say those are MARKETING NIGHTMARES...

You made my point exactly...the game has traded a public image nightmare on one facet for 10 public image nightmares on other levels...

Originally Posted by paisjpq

wasn't it also his first start for his new trainer?

Yeah, and Kelly Breen is twice the horseman that Todd Pletcher is, right?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

It's kind of like swimming in a way...

Swimming is very good for people (and animals) that have had an impactual injury, but the water resistance is tougher on soft tissue. I really don't know how to put it into words, but I disagree with your thought on it...

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

This is exactly my point, you don't think racing on those hard tracks can just as easily have caused wear and tear and just became the proverbial straw? If he ran on nothing but Poly than you have a point, the fact is he hardly did at all.

The fact is that he was fine before he ran on Polytrack....now he's retired

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

It's kind of like swimming in a way...

Swimming is very good for people (and animals) that have had an impactual injury, but the water resistance is tougher on soft tissue. I really don't know how to put it into words, but I disagree with your thought on it...

Well, I am basing it on my experience and don't see how in the world you could correlate training over polytrack to a swimming pool. If anything, synthetic surfaces create less resistance than dirt surfaces because of the boyancy factor. It creates less resistance to my animals anyway. Horses bounce over it, which is why so many TBs who are talented on the dirt have problems running over it.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

I still am a traditionalist though, and don't advocate polytrack except in those extreme circumstances and for training tracks.

The more a horse slips, runs off balance, and the track breaks away from him - the more prone he will miss step or over step in ways that cause soft tissue injuries.....Also, I have talked to more than few trainers who wintered at Turfway Park this past winter who came back to CD in the spring and told me that while they had less injuries with horses up front, they incurred far more injuries with horses rear ends.....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Yeah, and Kelly Breen is twice the horseman that Todd Pletcher is, right?

better or worse...makes no difference...they have different styles of training which can result in different outcomes for their horses...I am not saying TP broke down the horse...because that argument would make about as much sense as your argument that he broke down the first time he ran on poly, as though he wouldn't have on dirt...they are both stupid.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Well, I am basing it on my experience and don't see how in the world you could correlate training over polytrack to a swimming pool. If anything, synthetic surfaces create less resistance than dirt surfaces because of the boyancy factor. Horses bounce over it, which is why so many TBs who are talented on the dirt have problems running over it.

And because it's so buoyant, they don't hit the ground as hard, correct? What do you think happens to horses who are USED to hitting the ground hard? They will still use JUST AS MUCH effort to pick their feet up and because of that, it causes more soft injury injuries. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Cunningham on this one.

Here's the definition for buoyant (in case you were wondering why I compared the surface to swimming):

buoyant
–adjective

1. tending to float in a fluid.
2. capable of keeping a body afloat, as a liquid.
3. not easily depressed; cheerful.
4. cheering or invigorating.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The people who own Noble Stella and Praying for Cash certainly care that their horses just suffered career ending injuries and can still be bred rather than dying on the track. Also, every career ending injury to a horse with breeding value does not necessarily mean it would be a career ending injury to horses without breeding value.

yeah, you are right, ones with no vlaue will be put down anyway.

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

This is exactly my point, you don't think racing on those hard tracks can just as easily have caused wear and tear and just became the proverbial straw? If he ran on nothing but Poly than you have a point, the fact is he hardly did at all.

Then you disgaree with the trainers and owners Ive spoken to that say soft tissue and rear end problems are defninitely occurring on this stuff.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The more a horse slips, runs off balance, and the track breaks away from him - the more prone he will miss step or over step in ways that cause soft tissue injuries.....Also, I have talked to more than few trainers who wintered at Turfway Park this past winter who came back to CD in the spring and told me that while they had less injuries with horses up front, they incurred far more injuries with horses rear ends.....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

Alright, I'll withold further judgment until a friend tells me how his horses are doing over the stuff. I didn't know that horses often slipped over the stuff or that the track broke away more easily. That would definitely cause soft tissue injuries.

....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

And Joel, you knew that I knew this stuff I know that I am ignorant about some things, but I am not THAT ignorant .