'Rags' with hairline fracture; '08 possible

[ultracapper]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I know that there will always be those that want to keep blinders on. Nobody ever said that every horse that runs in the race is going to come out hurt or suffer later. But the percentage of those that come out of that race to either never run again, never win again, or not even finish out the year is too high for me. In my 22 years of watching the sport, I've seen far too many horses that run in the Belmont and are seriously affected in one or more of the three ways I mentioned above.

Ferdinand, Risen Star, Hansel, Pine Bluff, Prairie Bayou, Thunder Gulch, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic, Monarchos, Point Given, Empire Maker, Smarty Jones, Giacomo, Afleet Alex, Jazil, Rags to Riches.

To be fair, in the cases of Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic and Smarty Jones, they had to be there and I would have run there with them too. But I can't help but feel that there is some connection to that race and these horses suffering the problems they have. And it seems like it's getting worse. If it's acceptable for u that there is a 50/50 chance that if u run in that race, your career is basically over (or at least your season), then u run. For me, that's just too high a percentage. Maybe some of u are ok with losing at least one major horse every year out of the Belmont Stakes. I'm not. We've lost Rags in 07, Jazil in 06, Alex and Giacomo in 05, Smarty in 04, Empire Maker in 03, Point Given and Monarchos in 01, Charismatic in 99, Real Quiet in 98 and Silver Charm in 97. This is good for the sport how? Sure, injuries can and do happen at any time. Sure, PG, Empire Maker and Rags were injured in subsequent races. And I'm not even saying that there is conclusive proof that the Belmont has anything to do with this. But it is a fact that all of these horses have that one thing in common.

all those colts also ran in the kentucky derby. maybe that's the race that's killing them.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ultracapper

all those colts also ran in the kentucky derby. maybe that's the race that's killing them.

It's that race that starts the process and the Belmont that finishes them off.

[King Glorious]

By the way, where were all these new fans that people told us Rags brought to the sport? The return of Rags, the debut of the $16 million horse, four graded stakes races..........7500 or so fans.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In my 22 years of watching the sport, I've seen far too many horses that run in the Belmont and are seriously affected in one or more of the three ways I mentioned above.

Ferdinand, Risen Star, Hansel, Pine Bluff, Prairie Bayou, Thunder Gulch, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic, Monarchos, Point Given, Empire Maker, Smarty Jones, Giacomo, Afleet Alex, Jazil, Rags to Riches.

Ferdinand went on to win the BC Classic. That's usually considered a pretty good after-Belmont performance.

--Dunbar

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Ferdinand went on to win the BC Classic. That's usually considered a pretty good after-Belmont performance.

--Dunbar

Silver Charm came back to do big things too. Real Quiet came back to win the Hollywood Gold Cup the next year. All three were knocked out for the remainder of their 3yo seasons though, one of the three things I am talking about. And before anyone wants to get technical, I know Silver Charm and Ferdinand made it back for the Malibu on Dec 26.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by easy goer

You cant tell. We have nothing else to go on. IT's just some evidence, there is nothing that can be proved. No one's going to hand us x rays etc. so that's all the evidence we have. Its not conclusive, others may form other conclusions.

As I recall he seemed to bear out in the stretch but maybe I am not remembering it well. IT's hardly crucial to the main argument is it?

john servis, after the belmont:

"He's going to get three or four weeks just to rest up and then we'll get him ready and put him on a schedule and map out a plan for the Breeders' Cup. He came out of the race really good."

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

What rock do you live under?

Some people have lives... unlike the rest of us here...

[King Glorious]

Lives are so overrated.

[blackthroatedwind]

Tough campaigns obviously can, and often do, wear horses down. The Belmont Stakes, for many horses in history ( less so now ), is the culmination of virtually an entire career of " prep " races. The fact that some horses need rest after that race is not a function of the Belmont whatsoever, it is merely the temporary end of a long and arduous journey.

What is interesting to me is that through the flawed arguments offered by some in this thread we have seen that, in fact, the Belmont has been the springboard for many major stakes over the following 18 months.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Tough campaigns obviously can, and often do, wear horses down. The Belmont Stakes, for many horses in history ( less so now ), is the culmination of virtually an entire career of " prep " races. The fact that some horses need rest after that race is not a function of the Belmont whatsoever, it is merely the temporary end of a long and arduous journey.

What is interesting to me is that through the flawed arguments offered by some in this thread we have seen that, in fact, the Belmont has been the springboard for many major stakes over the following 18 months.

I'll tell u what I think and I'll wait for u to jump all over it but I think part of it is the effort it takes to win the race vs. being an also ran in the race. Take for example the Arc de Triomphe. Most people would be surprised to learn that no Arc winner has ever come over and won the BC Turf. Realizing that only four have tried it (Dancing Brave, Trempolino, Saumarez and Subotica) but it's still never been done. I believe that had one or more of those four won it, trainers wouldn't have stopped even trying. At the same time that they aren't able to complete the double, there have been several Arc also rans (High Chaparral twice, Daylami, In the Wings, Pilsudski, Shirocco) that have found Turf success. Why is that? I believe that the effort it takes to win some of these grueling test like the Arc and the Belmont, coming at the end of campaigns, takes a huge toll and leave horses more vulnerable to injuries.

U may say that the horses coming out of the Belmont may only need a rest. U are probably right. U've probably forgotten more about horse racing than I'll ever learn. But what I do know is that in the past seven years, we've gotten a combined total of six races and three wins post Belmont from the seven winners of the race in the remainder of their 3yo seasons. That's just not good. If it's not the Belmont, something is obviously going wrong these days.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'll tell u what I think and I'll wait for u to jump all over it but I think part of it is the effort it takes to win the race vs. being an also ran in the race. Take for example the Arc de Triomphe. Most people would be surprised to learn that no Arc winner has ever come over and won the BC Turf. Realizing that only four have tried it (Dancing Brave, Trempolino, Saumarez and Subotica) but it's still never been done. I believe that had one or more of those four won it, trainers wouldn't have stopped even trying. At the same time that they aren't able to complete the double, there have been several Arc also rans (High Chaparral twice, Daylami, In the Wings, Pilsudski, Shirocco) that have found Turf success. Why is that? I believe that the effort it takes to win some of these grueling test like the Arc and the Belmont, coming at the end of campaigns, takes a huge toll and leave horses more vulnerable to injuries.

U may say that the horses coming out of the Belmont may only need a rest. U are probably right. U've probably forgotten more about horse racing than I'll ever learn. But what I do know is that in the past seven years, we've gotten a combined total of six races and three wins post Belmont from the seven winners of the race in the remainder of their 3yo seasons. That's just not good. If it's not the Belmont, something is obviously going wrong these days.

well, you have bad belmont winners such as jazil, you have horses such as birdstone who go on to win other big races, and retire to make more money in the shed. you have afleet alex, who just wasn't given the time to race again--his injury was relatively minor, but they tried to rush him back too soon. smarty wasn't injured in the belmont, his issues were described as chronic, and once again the shed beckoned. more to it then just to say this horse did this, and never ran again. why didn't he run again? or why didn't he win again? maybe a bad winner who lucked out by not having the top 3 yo's run?
also, you need to consider a horse past three (IF he makes it that far). there are plenty of reasons why a horse may need an extended break, whether from a grueling spring, or from any number of issues. citation missed his entire four year old season for example. seattle slew didn't run again after his dismal swaps stakes. i doubt the belmont was the cause, but due to the combined efforts of his spring campaign.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Though I disagree about your Belmont Stakes analysis as the race that kills off top horses, I wondered the same thing about the attendance.

It was a funny weather day on Long Island on Saturday. It was drizzling and overcast until about 1:00 p.m., at which time the sun came out and was out for the remainder of the day. The temperature was comfortable.

Still, though, I'd like to hear from those in the audience who claimed that top horses would bring people out to the races and keep them coming -- Funny Cide, Smarty Jones were examples used last month -- to explain the continued lack of on-track support at Belmont Park.

c'mon, you know everyone was anxiously awaiting the big college matchup between michigan and notre dame.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Both of whom performed better than The Green Monkey!

no, i'd have to say the monkey did better than notre dame, at least he hit the board!!!

damn, just how bad IS notre dame??

Trip notes say Smarty: "...drifted out when struck left handed with the whip in upper stretch and again nearing the eight pole..."

Maybe you can call DRF or whomever and tell them that didnt happen?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Though I disagree about your Belmont Stakes analysis as the race that kills off top horses, I wondered the same thing about the attendance.

It was a funny weather day on Long Island on Saturday. It was drizzling and overcast until about 1:00 p.m., at which time the sun came out and was out for the remainder of the day. The temperature was comfortable.

Still, though, I'd like to hear from those in the audience who claimed that top horses would bring people out to the races and keep them coming -- Funny Cide, Smarty Jones were examples used last month -- to explain the continued lack of on-track support at Belmont Park.

If I didn't have the best seats in the house to see my beloved Mets lose another @#($*@#ing game I'd have been there. September Saturdays are tough, there's a lot of competition for entertainment dollar/time. Often when I suggest the track I get a "but I gotta watch football", until I make it clear they have the games on at the track. Perhaps NYRA should advertise/promote that a bit.

[SentToStud]

Those are the drf trip notes.

Yeah, I wasnt sure whether DRF or BRIS does them because I know there are at least two different charts made so maybe the notes are shared or maybe they have different.

I actually did ask Stewart Elliot about the race months after the hoopla died. I was concerned about the way Smarty took the turn but he said that he usually was somewhat wide but it did concern about the horse bearing out in the lane. Which is kinda why I got confused about how wide Smarty was or what was it exactly. Elliot said the horse really didnt slow down till right at the end, but like the other guy said they can bear out for lots of reasons.

If you get a chance to ask Elliot or Servis they will likely tell you that this horse was never the same after Belmont. Elliot was approachable back then but maybe they get jaded after people ask them the same stuff..

[miraja2]

At some point the "BS meter" might get old, but we are a long way from that at this point.
It makes me laugh every time I see it....especially when it is used as appropriately as it was in this case.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by miraja2

At some point the "BS meter" might get old, but we are a long way from that at this point.
It makes me laugh every time I see it....especially when it is used as appropriately as it was in this case.

And to think Elliot and Servis were over for dinner tonight and I forgot to ask them as suggested.

[Antitrust32]

i think the two baseball games (mets and yanks) helped keep fans away. They were big games also. Combine that with college football. I still think there should have been a lot more people at the track though! It felt so empty.

Oh yeah, Go Phillies!!