Bernardini ?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Mazel Trick was way better than Mizzen Mast.

He was the best horse I've seen over the last 15 years that is now pretty much forgotten.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You really bet David Junior in that race?

Yep. He made an eye-catching move along the inside early down the backstretch before stopping to a walk before the quarter pole. I blame Jamie Spencer. I also blame Victor Espinoza for sending my Mile horse, SILENT NAME to the lead from the outset, costing him the race (or at least 4th place).

Hey, at least I was the first one out of the parking lot that day...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Mazel Trick was way better than Mizzen Mast.

He was the best horse I've seen over the last 15 years that is now pretty much forgotten.

Dubious assertion beyond 8.5f. I know he beat the clock and all, but did he ever meet any real horses. He blew apart completely training for the Pacific Classic (I think he was nearly put down actually).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yep. He made an eye-catching move along the inside early down the backstretch before stopping to a walk before the quarter pole. I blame Jamie Spencer. I also blame Victor Espinoza for sending my Mile horse, SILENT NAME to the lead from the outset, costing him the race (or at least 4th place).

Hey, at least I was the first one out of the parking lot that day...

I made large bets on Too Much Bling and Wait A While that day - it wasn't exactly one of my best BC's from a betting standpoint either.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Dubious assertion beyond 8.5f. I know he beat the clock and all, but did he ever meet any real horses. He blew apart completely training for the Pacific Classic (I think he was nearly put down actually).

In the Triple Bend - he destroyed a good field of sprinters. The 2nd place finisher Christmas Boy won the Bing Crosby next out with a 117 Beyer.

In the San Diego he defeated good routers in River Keen and Budroyale. River Keen shipped east and won the Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup. Budroyale won that years Goodwood and was 2nd in the BC Classic.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I made large bets on Too Much Bling and Wait A While that day - it wasn't exactly one of my best BC's from a betting standpoint either.

One of the most ridiculous BC's I ever encountered (and this isn't red-boarding cuz none of 'em won) was the '91 edition at CD. I had Pleasant Tap in the Sprint (2nd at 8-1), La Spia in the Juvenile Fillies (2nd at 30-1 after jumping the f'ng tire tracks just as she did in the Oak Leaf), Brought To Mind in the Distaff (3rd at 70-1), Bertrando in the Juvenile (2nd at something short I'm sure), and Quest For Fame in the Turf (3rd at like 30-1 or so).

The worst beat I took though was getting laughed out of the room when singing the praises of Itsallgreektome in the '90 Mile at 30-1 and then having him get tagged the last few yards by Royal Academy just as I was about to start smacking people in the back of their fat, ignorant heads.

I really should have learned how to bet exotics effectively back when I actually enjoyed betting.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

In the Triple Bend - he destroyed a good field of sprinters. The 2nd place finisher Christmas Boy won the Bing Crosby next out with a 117 Beyer.

In the San Diego he defeated good routers in River Keen and Budroyale. River Keen shipped east and won the Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup. Budroyale won that years Goodwood and was 2nd in the BC Classic.

Ah, Christmas Boy, a very good Sadler horse. Not sure if he was an ex-claimer, but he was a bit fragile. Think he got upset in the Pat O'Brien that meet by some Canani closer, Running Thunder or something like that. That might have been the same meet where Kona Gold won 3 straight allowances by open lengths while breaking poorly in at least two of them.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Regal Thunder was 3rd to Mazel Trick and Christmas Boy in the Triple Bend.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Regal Thunder was 3rd to Mazel Trick and Christmas Boy in the Triple Bend.

That was him. The Kona Gold allowances had to be the year before. He must have taken the meet off in '99 after the tough winter battles with Big Jag and stablemate Son Of A Pistol earlier that year. Did either Christmas Boy or Regal Thunder make it to the BC Sprint? I don't think so.

[robfla]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Is it possible for someone to put his pp's up?

http://www.drf.com/eclipse/2006/pps/..._finalists.pdf

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

PG,
Lammtarra was the Eurohorse of the year in 1995. 1995 happened to be one of the weakest european seasons on record. In fact saying that bernardini couldnt beat lammatarra is like saying the Boston Celtics couldnt beat the Dallas Cowboys.

PG, tell em that Bernardini will be a much better sire than Lammtarra...lets see them poke fun at you for that!

Yeah, that 1995 was really weak. Perhaps you arent remembering. Lamtarra beat Swain on top of freedom Cry and Pentire.

Your analogy is not much better than your memory. These are all racehorses right? Euros come over here and win races on dirt right?

Lamtarra, in four starts, won the epsom, king george and arc. Not too many that can say that.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Giant Gentleman was the mediocre Pegasus horse I was talking about. And just to be clear, he beat Orientate in the 9f Strub, not the 7f Malibu--which would have actually meant something. But no need to make that distinction.

And also no need to make the distinction that Orientate was a multiple stake winner at two turns. Not the grade 1 sprint beast but still a more than capable stake horse.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

So if you don't care about figures, but you think Bernardini moved to soon, how do you decide who is the better horse, him or Invasor?

By the way, I'm a casual observer here, My selection, DAVID JUNIOR, PULLED UP TOO SOON.

Experience. Intuition. There are just so many different 'types' of races. When you see how a given type tends to play out, you get a sense of who got the better setup.

I'm not claiming that Bernie blows Invasor away with a better trip. However, his trip was certainly at least ONE LENGTH worse than Invasor's.

I concede that figures are useful when they involve horses I don't know much about (haven't seen their races). They have no use, however, in cases where I've seen the horses over time. If I need a figure to tell me who the better of two good horses is OR how good a horse really is, then I really shouldn't be playing.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Experience. Intuition. There are just so many different 'types' of races. When you see how a given type tends to play out, you get a sense of who got the better setup.

I'm not claiming that Bernie blows Invasor away with a better trip. However, his trip was certainly at least ONE LENGTH worse than Invasor's.

I concede that figures are useful when they involve horses I don't know much about (haven't seen their races). They have no use, however, in cases where I've seen the horses over time. If I need a figure to tell me who the better of two good horses is OR how good a horse really is, then I really shouldn't be playing.

Yeah, Invasor had to go out 4 paths wider on the turn (with contact to his inside!) and Invasor had the better "set up". Here is the race in case you havent seen it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xvzZJzgk1d4

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Yeah, Invasor had to go out 4 paths wider on the turn (with contact to his inside!) and Invasor had the better "set up". Here is the race in case you havent seen it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xvzZJzgk1d4

If Bernardini was good enough Costellano gave him a quality opportunity to win.. I am not saying he moved at the exact perfect time but understand he clearly thought he was on a monster and once clear and without trouble the likely winner. When you are sitting on what you believe is the best horse your job is to get a good trip and give the horse every opportunity to win.. Costellano clearly does as much.. On that day in that race Invasor was the better horse and IMO had more to overcome then Bernardini.

[CSC]

Speaking about bad rides as on the Saez thread, Jara's ride on Invasor in The Donn was far worser than what happened to Proud Spell last weekend. If Invasor wasn't such a superior horse to the field he faced Jara would have been brought to the shed I suspect.

[blackthroatedwind]

It was close but Bernardini was probably better. The ride he got in the Classic was vintage Castellano and anyone who has been paying attention to him over the last decade knows exactly what I mean. He must have learned to ride by watching old films of Eddie Maple....the king of the premature wide move on the turn.

The argument that " if Bernardini was such a great horse he would have won in spite of the ride " gets away from the very specific reality. The simple fact is that in the Classic, all things considered, Bernardini ran the better race. That's all that matters. Bernardini was never as good as many wanted to believe, just as Invasor isn't as good as some now seem to think he was, but that doesn't change what happened at Churchill that day.

I'll tell you one thing, if by some wild chance a genuinely remarkable horse should ever race again, I hope people can finally get some perspective.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It was close but Bernardini was probably better. The ride he got in the Classic was vintage Castellano and anyone who has been paying attention to him over the last decade knows exactly what I mean. He must have learned to ride by watching old films of Eddie Maple....the king of the premature wide move on the turn.

The argument that " if Bernardini was such a great horse he would have won in spite of the ride " gets away from the very specific reality. The simple fact is that in the Classic, all things considered, Bernardini ran the better race. That's all that matters. Bernardini was never as good as many wanted to believe, just as Invasor isn't as good as some now seem to think he was, but that doesn't change what happened at Churchill that day.

I'll tell you one thing, if by some wild chance a genuinely remarkable horse should ever race again, I hope people can finally get some perspective.

I would have loved to see Bernardini at 4. Invasor at 5 too.

Thanks for the Eddie Maple reference. Hadn't thought of him in ages.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Invasor went past him without any resistance what so ever. The only reason it was not by more is because he started his run later.

And its not like Bernardini ran a bad race. He made a bold move on the turn and was in position to win. But a champion, a real champ, meets that challenge and at least puts up a fight. Can you really sit here and say he did that? Or was it more like he just gave it up?

I thought it took Invasor a while to get past Bernardini, but that's just me.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I would have loved to see Bernardini at 4. Invasor at 5 too.

Thanks for the Eddie Maple reference. Hadn't thought of him in ages.

I'm not sure that Invasor would have improved, but I guess all of this is conjecture, but I agree it would have been nice to see Bernardini at 4. There is more than a little reason to believe he might have been really terrific.