2009 Graded Stakes

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by philcski

Frost Giant won the Suburban this year... and PG loves him. That is probably enough to downgrade it on it's own!

It's based on the last three years. Can you really say the Suburban with Frost Giant, Political Force, and Invasor is any worse than the Stephen Foster with Curlin, Flashy Bull, and Seek Gold? That one should be a G1 and the other shouldn't? Really, they should both be G1s and the Foster should be moved to Derby weekend where there is a hole in the calendar.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It's based on the last three years. Can you really say the Suburban with Frost Giant, Political Force, and Invasor is any worse than the Stephen Foster with Curlin, Flashy Bull, and Seek Gold? That one should be a G1 and the other shouldn't?

how about vs. the Clark, with AP Arrow, Premium Tap, Magna Grad, and Saint Liam, which is a G2?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

WTF are you talking about? Get ahold of yourself. The Distaff/Ladies Classic has been run 25 times.

Yep, I am a idiot....friggin name change...My bad

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Scav

Yep, I am a idiot....friggin name change...My bad

You know where that post is going

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by philcski

how about vs. the Clark, with AP Arrow, Premium Tap, Magna Grad, and Saint Liam, which is a G2?

I wouldn't have a problem with the Clark returning to a G1 ahead of some of these other races. The fact is, we need races that give a reason for owners to bring their top 3yos back. Downgrading the races in the older male division is just providing even less incentive. In just two years we've seen the Pimlico Special lost as a G1, the Mass Cap lost as a G2, and both the Suburban and Clark dropped from G1 to G2 while to counterbalance only the Goodwood on cushion crap has gone to G1. How is that helping provide incentive to bring back a good horse?

[Travis Stone]

Horse racing is probably the only sport which rates their events before the participants are known or the event is held.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Horse racing is probably the only sport which rates their events before the participants are known or the event is held.

You're kidding....right?

Every professional sport does the same thing.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're kidding....right?

Every professional sport does the same thing.

My point is that we call this race a top race, and that race a mediocre race, before we even know who is running. Aside from the marketing usage, I don't understand what value it adds? And on the flip-side, would it be so bad to have a number assigned down the road where breeders could use it more accurately?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

My point is that we call this race a top race, and that race a mediocre race, before we even know who is running. Aside from the marketing usage, I don't understand what value it adds? And on the flip-side, would it be so bad to have a number assigned down the road where breeders could use it more accurately?

Yes, it would. Then you'd have the connections of Curlin announce he was going to one race and everyone ducking him for another. The other race gets assigned a G1 cause of a deep field and Curlin's race becomes a G3 because it turns into a walkover. By assigning the Grade ahead of time those people can choose to duck Curlin in the G1 but may have to run in a G2 or G3 to do so.

[blackthroatedwind]

Breeder's are looking for accuracy? Who knew.

There are two groups....people who look at things accurately ( bettors ) and people who....well you know.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

There are two groups....people who look at things accurately ( bettors )

Some bettors... hopefully not the majority though.

[blackthroatedwind]

Right. I mean, it's not like I was including Fischer.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by philcski

how about vs. the Clark, with AP Arrow, Premium Tap, Magna Grad, and Saint Liam, which is a G2?

The Clark was upgraded for exactly 1 year and downgraded the next season. Strange. This year's Clark (G2) is better than the Cigar Mile (G1) so one yearobviously doesn't make or break a race.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Linny

The Clark was upgraded for exactly 1 year and downgraded the next season. Strange. This year's Clark (G2) is better than the Cigar Mile (G1) so one yearobviously doesn't make or break a race.

It is?

It has Commentator and a bunch of relative dreck. Now, I understand what you are sort of saying about the Cigar, but on overall quality, it is a MUCH better race.

I do find the upgrade and then immediate downgrade, especially in that Premium Tap won it, to have been pretty strange.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm having a tough time stomaching the Jamaica Handicap as a bigger race than the Suburban.

Different divisions makes it an unfair comparison. Each division's races have to be compared to other races within that division, not to races in a different division. Obviously, a race like the Oak Leaf Stakes is not a bigger race with better quality horses than the Oaklawn Hcp. But that's not the the way to look at it, I don't think. I think that the best races in a given division should get the highest ratings. The Madison is one of the three or four best races in the filly/mare sprinters division. The Jamaica is one of the three or four best races for 3yo grass runners. The Suburban is no longer one of the top races for older males.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Different divisions makes it an unfair comparison. Each division's races have to be compared to other races within that division, not to races in a different division. Obviously, a race like the Oak Leaf Stakes is not a bigger race with better quality horses than the Oaklawn Hcp. But that's not the the way to look at it, I don't think. I think that the best races in a given division should get the highest ratings. The Madison is one of the three or four best races in the filly/mare sprinters division. The Jamaica is one of the three or four best races for 3yo grass runners. The Suburban is no longer one of the top races for older males.

Fair point, but by that logic the Virginia Derby should be a G1 over the Jamaica, IMO. Gio Ponti, Red Giant, Go Between, English Channel, Kitten's Joy, and Silver Tree are the last 6 winners. Find me a better turf race for 3YO's than that.

And I have pictures of two of the last four winners of the Jamaica hanging in my house.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

And I have pictures of two of the last four winners of the Jamaica hanging in my house.

You're scaring me.

[Linny]

The Madison was bumped up by Ventura. I admit that I tend to think that the Committee just sits and pants and waits for the chance to upgrade anything Keeneland runs. When the Shadwell Mile and the Maker's Mark mile were upgraded and the Oak Tree Mile not, that was it for me. The Oak Tree had sent out about 4 straight BC Mile winners and several others that ran well.

BTW, IMO, neither the Clark or the Cigar is all that great. Good races, possibly nice betting events (I haven't 'capped them yet obviously, using likely starters in NY) but if they cancelled the Remsen, I'd skip my trip to the Big A on Sat.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're scaring me.

Well, I have two pictures of you hanging in my house too, does that scare you?













THUD

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by philcski

Fair point, but by that logic the Virginia Derby should be a G1 over the Jamaica, IMO. Gio Ponti, Red Giant, Go Between, English Channel, Kitten's Joy, and Silver Tree are the last 6 winners. Find me a better turf race for 3YO's than that.

And I have pictures of two of the last four winners of the Jamaica hanging in my house.

You'd get no argument from me at all. I think the VA Derby should be the higher rated of the two.

On the subject of the Arkansas Derby, I think it's ridiculous that it's not on par with the Blue Grass, Wood, Florida Derby, and SA Derby. I think they should all be grade two races since they are preps for the real big one but I'm not going to argue whether they should be one's or two's. Whatever they are, they should all be the same. To have the Arkansas Derby as the same grade as it's prep, the Rebel, is beyond stupid.