Gotham Stakes

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Look at his splits in the Derby and see how anyone else in that field finished who tried to stay near him. The name does suit you though.

If that's the standard, you might want to consider Congaree's Derby, in what was only his fourth or fifth lifetime start.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

And was still beaten by Imawildandcrazyguy

As was Any Given Saturday

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Totally agree. Mr. Fantasy hasn't proven much yet. He cantered through two state bred races but we won't know brillance until he gets confronted and goes eye to eye with someone. He'll get the distance, we just don't know what kind of heart he has yet. But this is a fun group that will get more interesting as we go forward.

That's what brilliance is, being very fast without ever being truly tested. Mr. Fantasy may or may not fit that description, but suggesting that he has to get "looked in the eye" to be brilliant makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Look at Big Brown last year. His breeding never indicated he would be able to go the distance he went.

Not true at all.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

As was Any Given Saturday

He was very wide on a good rail track and almost got tko'd on the far turn.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

That's what brilliance is, being very fast without ever being truly tested. Mr. Fantasy may or may not fit that description, but suggesting that he has to get "looked in the eye" to be brilliant makes no sense.



Not true at all.

Maybe we have two very different notions of brilliance for a race horse. I think brilliance in a horse is breeding, maturity and performance. Sometimes a brilliant horse can out perform his/her breeding. Which I contend Big B did last year. But without maturity and the experience gained from being battle tested, a horses' capacity for brilliance can be quite limited. He has had a couple brilliant performances given the ease in which he has accomplished his two wins but to be a brilliant horse is another thing.
Now understand, I would like nothing better than to just agree with you. I have been so impressed with the horse since he's been training at Belmont. Kiaran and his assistant here at Belmont are very high on him. But I won't put him into the brilliant category until I can see how he performs against the kind of company he will face in the Gotham. He's got to contend with other speed in the race and will battle with some closers in the stretch.
Mig came off him last time and said that he definately didn't need the lead which I think will be critical for him as he moves forward. Whether he does or not we will eventually see. He is extremely mature for a horse with so little experience.
I better stop or I'll convince myself that your are right. I have to control my being a fan of the horse to handicap and bet his races.

[blackthroatedwind]

Alan Garcia thinks Taqarub can rate this weekend at Gulfstream. I tend to agree with him....he will rate....and run last. No disrespect, but I want to see speed types rate in a competitive horserace before I believe they can do it. Most of the time, they can't.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Alan Garcia thinks Taqarub can rate this weekend at Gulfstream. I tend to agree with him....he will rate....and run last. No disrespect, but I want to see speed types rate in a competitive horserace before I believe they can do it. Most of the time, they can't.

So, if the trainer gets Taqarub out there for a gate work in the morning with 3 of the fastest horses in his barn. And, has an exercise rider that can actually hold him. And Taqarub RATES. And you're out there watching it, you wouldn't believe it?

How about if Garcia were to shoot up some 'roids before the ride?

[Danzig]

it's not whether the rider can hold him, it's whether the horse is willing to do as he's told. no rider will fight a horse and win the battle-either the horse will relax, or he'll fight himself into exhaustion-which won't win him the race.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not whether the rider can hold him, it's whether the horse is willing to do as he's told. no rider will fight a horse and win the battle-either the horse will relax, or he'll fight himself into exhaustion-which won't win him the race.

Rene Douglas thinks you're full of crap.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28075

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Rene Douglas thinks you're full of crap.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28075

lol
how will i go on??

[the_fat_man]

While I appreciate the lesson about the obvious, it's actually NOT as obvious as all that.

To get a horse to rate you do in fact need to RESTRAIN IT, in most cases against its will
but not how Douglas, Homeister, and countless others do it

the horse needs to be restrained without being choked out
we typically don't get this
what we get is the extremes: not enough hold or too much hold

though I suspect that if it were left up to the horses, we'd probably have some better run races --- couldn't be any worse

do the mofo's who train ever watch races or do they just go by what the (in most cases) idiot jocks tell them?
it's rhetorical

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I appreciate the lesson about the obvious, it's actually NOT as obvious as all that.

To get a horse to rate you do in fact need to RESTRAIN IT
but not how Douglas, Homeister, and countless others do it

the horse needs to be restrained without being choked out

though I suspect that if it were left up to the horses, we'd probably have some better run races --- couldn't be any worse

the problem is, you have to have the horse willing to be restrained-and sometimes horses just will not do it, regardless of what's tried. but i'm sure you knew that already too.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Rene Douglas thinks you're full of crap.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28075

Nice ride by Rene on Ash today.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

If that's the standard, you might want to consider Congaree's Derby, in what was only his fourth or fifth lifetime start.

Or Medaglia d'Oro's BC Classic.

[Bobby Fischer]

Taqarub actually looks pretty strong. A lot of speed in here though.
Changing his style abruptly would negate whatever slim chances he has unless by "rate" he means concede the lead, and press SamePage until he folds just before the turn.

can Prado judge the pace here with Phil ? Theres some danger that Phil could break too well and be close to the pace stretching out.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

So, if the trainer gets Taqarub out there for a gate work in the morning with 3 of the fastest horses in his barn. And, has an exercise rider that can actually hold him. And Taqarub RATES. And you're out there watching it, you wouldn't believe it?

How about if Garcia were to shoot up some 'roids before the ride?

Rating in workouts and rating in races are completely different scenerios. I have had VERY good exercise riders tell me their speedballs rated very comfortably in the morning......and then watched them fail miserably in the afternoon.

[the_fat_man]

Hmmmm

Maybe, then, it's not the horses that are failing.

Originally Posted by Danzig

the problem is, you have to have the horse willing to be restrained-and sometimes horses just will not do it, regardless of what's tried. but i'm sure you knew that already too.

No he did not.

Horses are live big short haired bicycles.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Hmmmm

Maybe, then, it's not the horses that are failing.

It is the horses failing in many cases. It goes to a horses' maturity and intelligence. But training is totally different than a race and you can draw little from it. A horse capable of rating in the am can have significant difficulty in a race. And BTW is correct, speed balls seldom are capable of rating. Some joc's can tell when a horse doesn't need the lead. But I think many are so excited about the horses' potential or a mount from a well respected barn that they may exaggerate a bit. We will see this weekend and next at least from McLaughlin's two.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

It is the horses failing in many cases. It goes to a horses' maturity and intelligence. But training is totally different than a race and you can draw little from it. A horse capable of rating in the am can have significant difficulty in a race. And BTW is correct, speed balls seldom are capable of rating. Some joc's can tell when a horse doesn't need the lead. But I think many are so excited about the horses' potential or a mount from a well respected barn that they may exaggerate a bit. We will see this weekend and next at least from McLaughlin's two.

I'm tired of all this status quo BS. I worked on the backstretch and I have a pretty good idea what can and what can't be done. I'm sick and tired of hearing bettors REPEATING what LAZY/INCOMPETENT horsemen have been spewing for years. Yes, I realize that horses can be difficult but I'm tired of hearing that horses can ONLY do this or that: needs the lead; is headstrong; doesn't want to run behind horses; won't run on the inside. BULL ****. Each horse should be treated as an individual (case). Spend enough time with a horse and 'strange' things happen.

Tell you an interesting story about a cheap old out-of-town claimer that eventually won a nice allowance race in NYC, at BEL, running 1:09 and change. Had a nice run for a while. It's funny that this was a need the lead type in all of his previous races. In fact, he was so aggressive, that you couldn't even WALK HIM BEHIND horses in the barn; he had to in front of them. YET, the trainer was able to get him to rate and win. Wonder why that was? Yeah, the horse has to 'cooperate' and the jock needs to have a clue BUT the trainer also needs to TEACH the horse. Can't be that difficult to do because I don't see too many INTELLECTUALS on the backstretch. Seems that even OLD GELDINGS can learn to do new things.

To get a sense of where this game is in terms of technology, compare the teams involved in other forms of racing, auto and bike, for example, the work involved in getting ready for a race, with the 'teams' (laughable) in horse racing. Time to really catch up with the times.