Havent they done enough to destroy american business?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You obviously have zero economic background or understanding because you would realize that despite the propaganda it is the Rich who are losing the most and the rest of us who will ultimately pay. And believing that tax cuts have contributed much to this economic crash is to ignore the worldwide issues that we are seeing. You and many liberals continue to buy into the theory that the rich (or George Bush) are to blame for all the problems of the world. That is the class warfare that the Democrats wish to use to get votes. Actually believing that it is true is inexcusable.

It's not that I believe that the rich are the root of all evil.

It's that when the ONLY real option that Repubs are giving is "tax cuts" & "tax cuts" & "tax cuts" while offering NOTHING of substance to the debate that could actually help, then yes, I prefer taking other chances.

There's what Obama's doing and there's just cutting taxes and crossing your fingers as our two apparent options. If nothing in the middle is offered, then I'll take an overreach rather than just cutting taxes. That certainly didn't help us steer clear of this mess in the first place.

If there's a substantive debate to be had, then the Republicans are failing pretty miserably right now, because there's an awful lot of badgering Obama on the plan he came up with to fix it, and not a whole lot other than "just cut some more taxes" as an alternate solution. That's not helpful, and it's not effective as a singular strategy.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

1. yep

2. I have a huge problem with the financial news networks "finding" reasons why the stockmarket has an up or a down day. No one ever seems to question the rather dubious claims made and very often taken as gospel. "The stock market plunged on news that..." bull you dont know this.
The stock market has been extraordinarily shaky for a while now and is in a downward spiral and it seems that the most likely reason is uncertainty. People dont know if the "cure" will work or not, or even if there is a cure...
I heard some people say the only cure is 2 years of pain. This is as good as any I have ever heard.
The stock market looks backwards (monthly/weekly etc... reports that come in 1 month after the fact) and forwards. It seems to me it is much more complicated than "the stock market reacted to Iran's bellicose statements towards Israel"

3. The thing I hate most about the Democratic party.
Its way too easy and dangerous- setting people against each other.

The stock market is losing money rapidly despite the emergency measures that the new administration has taken. The tough guy act against banks may buy them some popularity among the common folk but the real money see it in an entirely different and negative light. One thing govt is really bad at doing an that is running business. Nationalizing banks means that they will running the financial sector. Who could possibly think that is good, hence the markets continuing plunge. The current administration may choose to ignore the market but they will eventually pay for that because the rest of us see what is happening. While they shouldnt and arent equipped to deal with it on a day to day basis the current trend should be more troubling to them then they outwardly appear to be.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It's not that I believe that the rich are the root of all evil.

It's that when the ONLY real option that Repubs are giving is "tax cuts" & "tax cuts" & "tax cuts" while offering NOTHING of substance to the debate that could actually help, then yes, I prefer taking other chances.

There's what Obama's doing and there's just cutting taxes and crossing your fingers as our two apparent options. If nothing in the middle is offered, then I'll take an overreach rather than just cutting taxes. That certainly didn't help us steer clear of this mess in the first place.

If there's a substantive debate to be had, then the Republicans are failing pretty miserably right now, because there's an awful lot of badgering Obama on the plan he came up with to fix it, and not a whole lot other than "just cut some more taxes" as an alternate solution. That's not helpful, and it's not effective as a singular strategy.

However the tax cuts have very little to do with this crisis. Bush's biggest mistake and where there is no defense for him in that his deficit spending continued to rise in unrealistic levels. He simply allowed the govt to grow too large. Obama is spending like Bush on steroids. it will make things worse, not better. The spending is the problem, not the tax cuts. If spending is the answer than wouldnt the war have helped insulate the economy?

There is no debate to be had because the democrats clearly wouldnt listen anyway. I can speak as a regular citizen who has no political party to worry about offending or election to worry about winning. The reality is that a lot of really smart people are worried. The rest still love Obama. Take that as you may. You wont be any less liberal or less of a card carrying Democrat if you see what they are doing has very little chance of working. Remember dissent is patriotic! (special thanks to Hillary Clinton or some other Democrat from the last election cycle for that last quote)

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

However the tax cuts have very little to do with this crisis. Bush's biggest mistake and where there is no defense for him in that his deficit spending continued to rise in unrealistic levels. He simply allowed the govt to grow too large. Obama is spending like Bush on steroids. it will make things worse, not better. The spending is the problem, not the tax cuts. If spending is the answer than wouldnt the war have helped insulate the economy?

There is no debate to be had because the democrats clearly wouldnt listen anyway. I can speak as a regular citizen who has no political party to worry about offending or election to worry about winning. The reality is that a lot of really smart people are worried. The rest still love Obama. Take that as you may. You wont be any less liberal or less of a card carrying Democrat if you see what they are doing has very little chance of working. Remember dissent is patriotic! (special thanks to Hillary Clinton or some other Democrat from the last election cycle for that last quote)

Well, the lack of debate is cyclical I guess. When you don't agree with the party in power, you don't get a voice....that rule became loud and clear in recent years. So it shouldn't really be surprising after years of being told that not agreeing was unpatriotic, that the concept is still stuck in folks' minds 40 days later.

I think my biggest problem, and sure, maybe I'm economically naive (likely), is that at least somebody is trying. The whole Repub attitude that we take good care of the best among us, and then hope that the goodness trickles down to everyone else just doesn't work. It doesn't work with money. It doesn't work with health. It just doesn't work. Maybe I'm a total socialist, but the self-first for the fortunate, then hope for the best for rest attitude seems like a pretty gigantic failure. So I'll take my chances on things, and pay the price if I'm wrong.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well, the lack of debate is cyclical I guess. When you don't agree with the party in power, you don't get a voice....that rule became loud and clear in recent years. So it shouldn't really be surprising after years of being told that not agreeing was unpatriotic, that the concept is still stuck in folks' minds 40 days later.

I think my biggest problem, and sure, maybe I'm economically naive (likely), is that at least somebody is trying. The whole Repub attitude that we take good care of the best among us, and then hope that the goodness trickles down to everyone else just doesn't work. It doesn't work with money. It doesn't work with health. It just doesn't work. Maybe I'm a total socialist, but the self-first for the fortunate, then hope for the best for rest attitude seems like a pretty gigantic failure. So I'll take my chances on things, and pay the price if I'm wrong.

Hey you are a writer, you arent supposed to have a clue about money

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Hey you are a writer, you arent supposed to have a clue about money

OOOOOOOOOOO

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are in the wonderful world of academia where theories abound and everything is insulated especially since Obama is sending more money.

Insulated my ass. I work too, and I've got over $15,000 in student loans racked up with still a year and change to go. So to suggest that I'm not affected by this is stupid. Obviously it's not nearly as dire for me as it is for many, but I'm not on easy street either Chuck.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The stock market is losing money rapidly despite the emergency measures that the new administration has taken. The tough guy act against banks may buy them some popularity among the common folk but the real money see it in an entirely different and negative light. One thing govt is really bad at doing an that is running business. Nationalizing banks means that they will running the financial sector. Who could possibly think that is good, hence the markets continuing plunge. The current administration may choose to ignore the market but they will eventually pay for that because the rest of us see what is happening. While they shouldnt and arent equipped to deal with it on a day to day basis the current trend should be more troubling to them then they outwardly appear to be.

Obama has already made it clear that this is what is not needed long term. This landslide started before Obama came to office. We were told by almost every reputable economist that emergency measures were needed MAINLY to keep money and credit moving. Told by Bush and Obama people.
We have also been told by conservative and liberal economists that certain "banks" (I dont know what to call some of these instituitions as the money they were lending and investing went way beyond what I see most local banks doing) cannot fail or we will see worse than what we are seeing NOW. We were told by Bush people that we WERE very close, very very close to having the financial system freeze, that we barely escaped disaster...

The stock market reacts both to what has happened, AND what it believes will happen. I am not an economics major, I never even had the class (was not required like it is now) but this seems clear to me:
When the stock market reacts to economic reports that must be built from what has already has taken place it is using events that have already occurred as an indicator of the future. Partially anyways.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Insulated my ass. I work too, and I've got over $15,000 in student loans racked up with still a year and change to go. So to suggest that I'm not affected by this is stupid. Obviously it's not nearly as dire for me as it is for many, but I'm not on easy street either Chuck.

Hey its nice to know that you have some skin in the game too. Take your pay check and give half of it to random people on the street. Then you know how the people who are "rich" and play by the rules by paying their debts feel. Then take what is left and put half of that on every horse John Candlin runs and you will know how it feels to see your 401k dwindle because douchenozzles (sorry coach) like Chris Dodd have to run their traps about nationalizing banks. Everytime you pay down that student loan think about the people who default that cause your interest rates to be higher and think about how you will feel when the govt comes and forgives their debt while you still have to pay.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

The stock market reacts both to what has happened, AND what it believes will happen. I am not an economics major, I never even had the class (was not required like it is now) but this seems clear to me:
When the stock market reacts to economic reports that must be built from what has already has taken place it is using events that have already occurred as an indicator of the future. Partially anyways.

This is clear

[ArlJim78]

of course the problem started well before Obama started calling the shots, but the problem with his 'solutions' is that they do more harm than good.
massive new spending and taxes and government programs are not going to stimulate anything except government. government is the cause of this problem, it encouraged all of the behavior that brought us to this point.
by bailing out the deadbeats and putting targets on businesses and the wealthy, he's sending exactly the wrong message.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Hey its nice to know that you have some skin in the game too. Take your pay check and give half of it to random people on the street. Then you know how the people who are "rich" and play by the rules by paying their debts feel. Then take what is left and put half of that on every horse John Candlin runs and you will know how it feels to see your 401k dwindle because douchenozzles (sorry coach) like Chris Dodd have to run their traps about nationalizing banks. Everytime you pay down that student loan think about the people who default that cause your interest rates to be higher and think about how you will feel when the govt comes and forgives their debt while you still have to pay.

[AeWingnut]

"you don't gear a train for the caboose you gear it for the engine"

I really don't see how taking money from the productive and giving it to the unproductive is going to stimulate my economy.

I am far from rich

when the government subsidizes bad
we get more of it

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Hey its nice to know that you have some skin in the game too. Take your pay check and give half of it to random people on the street. Then you know how the people who are "rich" and play by the rules by paying their debts feel. Then take what is left and put half of that on every horse John Candlin runs and you will know how it feels to see your 401k dwindle because douchenozzles (sorry coach) like Chris Dodd have to run their traps about nationalizing banks. Everytime you pay down that student loan think about the people who default that cause your interest rates to be higher and think about how you will feel when the govt comes and forgives their debt while you still have to pay.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The real world isnt that concerned with torture or Guantamano right now. I would be willing to bet that many who were appalled at torture would sign up to wear the black hood since they got laid off and cant find work.

if things keep going the way they are, I might be willing to check out that black hood job.
seriously though, my industry seems to be evaporating and blowing away at an alarming rate. the same thing is happening in South America and Europe.
so far at least, the much heralded change in torture policy is having limited impact on our order activity.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

its easy to be the bush sucks kids that hang on every word of the rank and file democratic time for change agenda..you now have gotten your leader.. i agree that bush was given bad advice and wasnt maybee as bright as obama or as good of a speaker. but..the people that were giving him advice on economic and other matters were on point.and they are now gone.the morons that now control u.s policy on economics and other matters are phucking you your 401 k your future and just maybee your kids future..this rash of spending will kill the average worker and stimulate nothing.. sence when does u.s.a barrow money from china/saudi.. in his haste to make joe un-employed a stand up guy obama and his advisors will have killed the entire system that has stood for 150 years.... dow below 4k soon..count on it..

ive taken my 401 out on the 21st of jan..after the taxes for taking it out early

im up 32 perc..after the plunge..

the only gov that gets it is from la and thats pretty sad..

[Cannon Shell]

Brian wanted the GOP to come up with a good idea. Here is one that got 2 whole Democrats to support it. Obama comes up with yet another broken campaign promise, with a caveat of course.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090304/...VuYXRlaWdub3Jl

[otisotisotis]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

its easy to be the bush sucks kids that hang on every word of the rank and file democratic time for change agenda..you now have gotten your leader.. i agree that bush was given bad advice and wasnt maybee as bright as obama or as good of a speaker. but..the people that were giving him advice on economic and other matters were on point.and they are now gone.the morons that now control u.s policy on economics and other matters are phucking you your 401 k your future and just maybee your kids future..this rash of spending will kill the average worker and stimulate nothing.. sence when does u.s.a barrow money from china/saudi.. in his haste to make joe un-employed a stand up guy obama and his advisors will have killed the entire system that has stood for 150 years.... dow below 4k soon..count on it..

ive taken my 401 out on the 21st of jan..after the taxes for taking it out early

im up 32 perc..after the plunge..

the only gov that gets it is from la and thats pretty sad..

that's hilarious....history dictates that this is the perfect time to be buying into the market...the 'rich folks' are getting stocks at less than wholesale while you-the chicken little types- take your money and run from the very system you kneel to, because wasn't it a republican regime that began pushing the 401k system on working class people?
corporate America has been so fat & greedy for so long (i.e. jobs overseas, flat lined wage increases for employees, etc.) they have forgotton on whose backs they have ridden.
Like all tough times, the lean, intelligent, & innovative will survive and be stronger for the lesson.

[Cannon Shell]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123604419092515347.html


The market has notably plunged since Mr. Obama introduced his budget last week, and that should be no surprise. The document was a declaration of hostility toward capitalists across the economy. Health-care stocks have dived on fears of new government mandates and price controls. Private lenders to students have been told they're no longer wanted. Anyone who uses carbon energy has been warned to expect a huge tax increase from cap and trade. And every risk-taker and investor now knows that another tax increase will slam the economy in 2011, unless Mr. Obama lets Speaker Nancy Pelosi impose one even earlier.

Meanwhile, Congress demands more bank lending even as it assails lenders and threatens to let judges rewrite mortgage contracts. The powers in Congress -- unrebuked by Mr. Obama -- are ridiculing and punishing the very capitalists who are essential to a sustainable recovery. The result has been a capital strike, and the return of the fear from last year that we could face a far deeper downturn. This is no way to nurture a wounded economy back to health.

Listening to Mr. Obama and his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, on the weekend, we couldn't help but wonder if they appreciate any of this. They seem preoccupied with going to the barricades against Republicans who wield little power, or picking a fight with Rush Limbaugh, as if this is the kind of economic leadership Americans want.

Perhaps they're reading the polls and figure they have two or three years before voters stop blaming Republicans and Mr. Bush for the economy. Even if that's right in the long run, in the meantime their assault on business and investors is delaying a recovery

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by otisotisotis

that's hilarious....history dictates that this is the perfect time to be buying into the market...the 'rich folks' are getting stocks at less than wholesale while you-the chicken little types- take your money and run from the very system you kneel to, because wasn't it a republican regime that began pushing the 401k system on working class people?
corporate America has been so fat & greedy for so long (i.e. jobs overseas, flat lined wage increases for employees, etc.) they have forgotton on whose backs they have ridden.
Like all tough times, the lean, intelligent, & innovative will survive and be stronger for the lesson.

Yeah they are making a killing buying stocks lately. Dow down 2000 points since Jan 2nd. Keep buying right?

Corporate America is what brought prosperity to this country which deep thinkers like you seem to have forgotten. And for those like you who choose to depend on Social security for your retirement, good luck to you. A 401k account is hardly for the rich.