The Boss has passed.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I would have prefer that

Wow. Not cool.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

God rest his soul, but dang, was Catfish Hunter just not that good. Worst modern starting pitcher in the HOF, easily.

This is debatable. He was not only good but for a 5 year period (1971-1975) extremely good. During that time his record:
111-49
2.65 era
190 starts/96 CG
1.027 whip

He won a single Cy Young but finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th during that time as well.

He won 20 games 5 times in a row (I know wins aren't a great measure but 5 in a row in rare in baseball history)

He is remembered in an unkind light because his last three years he was not very good because of injuries no doubt brought on by the insane number of innings he threw the last year in Oakland and first 2 in NY. He doesn't rank among the very best pitchers in history but he certainly deserved to be inducted.

As for the worst pitcher in modern history, that may be a little harsh
he was a better pitcher or at least as good as:
Phil Niekro
Don Drysdale
Waite Hoyt
Fergie Jenkins
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Don Sutton
Early Wynn

[slotdirt]

Get out of town. All of those guys had superior bodies of work to Hunter, and about a dozen guys who aren't in the HOF also do. Catfish Hunter is firmly esconced in the minds of most baseball experts (read: non-Yankee fans) as clearly the least deserving modern pitcher in the Hall of Fame.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Get out of town. All of those guys had superior bodies of work to Hunter, and about a dozen guys who aren't in the HOF also do. Catfish Hunter is firmly esconced in the minds of most baseball experts (read: non-Yankee fans) as clearly the least deserving modern pitcher in the Hall of Fame.

Playing longer doesnt make you a better pitcher. Show me a period where any of those other pitchers was considered the best pitcher in baseball. For the 1st part of the 70's Catfish hunter was easily one of the two or three best pitchers in the game.

Hunters 5 best seasons were better than any of those other guys 5 best seasons.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...itching_simple

[slotdirt]

So, what's your point? Dwight Gooden was one of the two or three best pitchers in baseball for a similar period. Does he deserve to be in the HOF?

Name the one modern pitcher currently enshrined in Cooperstown who had a worse career ERA+ than Catfish Hunter.

[slotdirt]

I can think of 20 players - pitchers and position players - off the top of my head more deserving of Hall of Fame enshrinement than Catfish Hunter. Players with good careers, not a couple good seasons. Hell, Roy Halladay has been a better pitcher for a longer period of time than Catfish Hunter was, and that's just one player currently playing who's probably more deserving of a plaque in Cooperstown than Jim Hunter.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

So, what's your point? Dwight Gooden was one of the two or three best pitchers in baseball for a similar period. Does he deserve to be in the HOF?

Name the one modern pitcher currently enshrined in Cooperstown who had a worse career ERA+ than Catfish Hunter.

You are implying that somehow Hunter wasnt a great pitcher when he most certainly was. You want to hold his last three years against him and the fact that he had a shorter career than most.

Dwight Gooden was a better pitcher at his best than any of those other pitchers, but his peak came during the 1st years of his career and his demise was self-induced. If he had 2 or 3 more seasons like his first 5 he too would have been in the HoF.

Hunter's weakness was the HR as he gave up a lot because he wasnt a power pitcher and didnt strikeout a lot of guys. But the idea that he somehow is much worse than the other guys listed is without merit.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I can think of 20 players - pitchers and position players - off the top of my head more deserving of Hall of Fame enshrinement than Catfish Hunter. Players with good careers, not a couple good seasons. Hell, Roy Halladay has been a better pitcher for a longer period of time than Catfish Hunter was, and that's just one player currently playing who's probably more deserving of a plaque in Cooperstown than Jim Hunter.

Oh no Halladay hasnt. He has had 6 complete seasons.

Hunter was a big league regular at 19 and a great deal of his career numbers were earned at an age before most pitchers even make their big league debuts.

Hunter didnt have a "few good seasons", he had great ones. Again no one is saying that he will make any all-time teams but he is absolutly Hall of fame worthy. Saying that a player is "more worthy" is not really pertinent. You either meet the standard or you dont. He does.

[slotdirt]

Fact: Catfish Hunter played on a bunch of good teams, won some World Series, and didn't pitch a game past the age of 33. His best season - either '73 or '75, take your pick - is inferior to all but two of Halladay's total seasons since he became a full-time starter in 2002. I don't think Roy Halladay is necessarily a Hall of Famer, but if his career ended today, I think most knowledgeable baseball minds would say he was a better pitcher than Catfish Hunter.

Catfish Hunter is the worst pitcher currently in the Hall of Fame. His election to the Hall of Fame literally lowered the standard to the point where he is the minimum standard for which all other borderline pitchers are judged. His career ERA when compared to the average ERA during the seasons he pitched is eclipsed by only Rube Marquard in terms of futility by pitchers who are members of the Hall of Fame as of 2010. There is literally not a statistic on the wide spectrum of baseball numbers that can justify his inclusion in the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Selectively remembering a couple fine seasons he had in the early 70's isn't going to change that.

Oh, and Phil Rizzuto is among the worst modern position player in the Hall of Fame, so at least the Yankees are covering all the bases in that respect.

[Cannon Shell]

Catfish Hunters career numbers
15 seasons
224-166
3.26 era
3449 IP
2958 hits
181 CG
42 shut outs
2012 K's
1.134 WHIP
8 time allstar
1 cy young (3 times in top 4)
led league in wins 2x (top 10-7x)
led league in era (top 3-3x)
led league in CG (top 10-7x)
playoff record 9-6 with 3.26 era

[slotdirt]

ERA+ of 104, as in his career ERA was barely above league average. A pock on the HOF admission process. Only Jim Rice being admitted can compare to Hunter's mediocre resume.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Fact: Catfish Hunter played on a bunch of good teams, won some World Series, and didn't pitch a game past the age of 33. His best season - either '73 or '75, take your pick - is inferior to all but two of Halladay's total seasons since he became a full-time starter in 2002. I don't think Roy Halladay is necessarily a Hall of Famer, but if his career ended today, I think most knowledgeable baseball minds would say he was a better pitcher than Catfish Hunter.

Catfish Hunter is the worst pitcher currently in the Hall of Fame. His election to the Hall of Fame literally lowered the standard to the point where he is the minimum standard for which all other borderline pitchers are judged. His career ERA when compared to the average ERA during the seasons he pitched is eclipsed by only Rube Marquard in terms of futility by pitchers who are members of the Hall of Fame as of 2010. There is literally not a statistic on the wide spectrum of baseball numbers that can justify his inclusion in the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Selectively remembering a couple fine seasons he had in the early 70's isn't going to change that.

Oh, and Phil Rizzuto is among the worst modern position player in the Hall of Fame, so at least the Yankees are covering all the bases in that respect.

If you dont think that his 74 season was his best then I would have to question what makes a good season to you?

And Phil Rizzuto is not nearly the worst position player in the hall of fame.

Ray Schalk, Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker and Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell and Roger Breshanhan are all weaker candidates than the Scooter who besides his playing career did announce games for 40 years. The worst HoF selection isn't even a player but how is Bowie Kuhn in?

[slotdirt]

Cannon, have you ever studied the wins above replacement metric? It is supposed to very roughly determine a value of a particular player/pitcher in relation to a "replacement," i.e., a guy off the scrap heap making a spot start or something of the like. Care to know where Catfish Hunter ranks all time among pitchers in the WAR logic?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

ERA+ of 104, as in his career ERA was barely above league average. A pock on the HOF admission process. Only Jim Rice being admitted can compare to Hunter's mediocre resume.

LOL

Thats all you can come up with? What about the fact that his 1st 2 seasons when he was a 19 and 20 year old pitching for a terrible team came during the period before the mound was lowered which negatively effects his overall ERA+? His 21 through 30 years which is what he was elected based on his ERA+ was 114. Those 10 years were outstanding.

He isnt even the worst A's pitcher elected. You would have a much better case against Rollie Fingers.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not to mention that he exploited the geographical advantage to the extreme wherein the balance of the sport was forever changed resulting in the big market/small market mess that baseball is in now.

Perhaps that is "good business" for him and the Yankees but it didn't result in an overall positive for the sport and as I said in a previous post, his own meddlesome behavior prevented things from being a whole lot worse.

What we want for sports is usually not exactly what would we want for society in general but socialism in leagues like the NFL and the NBA works a whole lot better for the sport and all the teams than it does in baseball. The mismanagement of the Yankees for most of the 80's and the early part of the 90's prevented them from dominating for much longer than they should have coming out of the 70's and lulled baseball into thinking that not sharing virtually all revenues would not result in the mess that it became.

chuck you can talk about all this domination in the late 90's and early part of this century that you want , but , if you take Rivera out of the equation and say put him on the red sox or the braves , the yankees don't have 4 rings in 5 years , it's really quite that simple how much that one player was worth for the yankees and when he goes in a few years let's see how much they win in the big spots in the playoffs when they have a lead going into the 8th inning

football is the #1 sport in america there is no question about that , 16 games vs 162 games has a lot to do with that part of the equation

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Cannon, have you ever studied the wins above replacement metric? It is supposed to very roughly determine a value of a particular player/pitcher in relation to a "replacement," i.e., a guy off the scrap heap making a spot start or something of the like. Care to know where Catfish Hunter ranks all time among pitchers in the WAR logic?

Yes and wins above replacement is much more accurate when comparing hitters

[slotdirt]

That's fine. It's not inaccurate when comparing pitchers, and Catfish Hunter is nestled right in between Doyle Alexander, John Tudor, and Bruce Hurst at 195 all time in WAR for pitchers.

You know who Hunter's career compares favorably to? Vida Blue. Where's his HOF plaque?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

chuck you can talk about all this domination in the late 90's and early part of this century that you want , but , if you take Rivera out of the equation and say put him on the red sox or the braves , the yankees don't have 4 rings in 5 years , it's really quite that simple how much that one player was worth for the yankees and when he goes in a few years let's see how much they win in the big spots in the playoffs when they have a lead going into the 8th inning

football is the #1 sport in america there is no question about that , 16 games vs 162 games has a lot to do with that part of the equation

You arent going to get it so just go back to WFAN.

So football became the number one sport because of the number of games played? Why did it take so long then?

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You arent going to get it so just go back to WFAN.

So football became the number one sport because of the number of games played? Why did it take so long then?

too many night games killed baseball

there were more days games in the 50's and 60's

[slotdirt]

Luis Tiant has better numbers than Catfish Hunter. Sorry, no plaque for him in Hall of Very Good. Likewise Jim Kaat. Bert Blyleven was five times the pitcher Jim Hunter was, yet he's barely getting anywhere near the requisite vote for enshrinement.

Let's just face facts that because Hunter was a Yankee during some very good seasons in the late 70's (not unlike Waite Hoyt and others who were inducted as sort of a team honor from those awesome 20's teams), he is in the Hall of Fame. There's really no other logical reason to have included him, great three or four seasons or not. I'm really most surprised Roger Maris never saw the Hall as his career arc really wasn't much different as a hitter than Hunter's was as a pitcher.