Valiant loss puts Zenyatta's prowess in perspective

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Thanks for proving my point.

That's it, no worries, I'm sure you will have no trouble picking/finding a fight at PA.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by CSC

That's it, no worries, I'm sure you will have no trouble picking/finding a fight at PA.

The board you got banned from? Seems like you seem to find fights where you go also.

I'm not picking a fight. I'm explaining to you why people often misunderstand you. It's because you pretend you are smart and it comes off very confusing.

Instead of addressing what is said you change the goalposts in some sort of "gotcha" game that you always lose. It's pretty amusing actually.

[Smooth Operator]

Enjoyed the article … but don't buy his high opinion of RA

Thought she was overrated last year … and her disappointing 2010 campaign helped to prove that.

[Indian Charlie]

Lol.

Lmao.

Lmfao.

Lmfaoaso.

Soiafr!

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by CSC

Then either you misunderstood what I wrote or the context was not the way I intended it. When I say something like Zenyatta lost nothing in defeat, comparing it to Seattle Slew's defeat. I expect a person of knowledege, as I expect from you to know exactly the context I was using it as. If the wording confused you, I duelly regret this. Now that you understand the analogy do you not agree in Mig and Haskin's view?

I continue to vehemently disagree with this statement of yours: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race." However, I think you have recognized the ridiculousness of that statement and (in your way) sort of retracted it so we'll let that go.

That has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion you are trying to have. As I've already said about 50 times, I do think more of Zenyatta after the race than I did going into the race. So, in that way the analogy to Slew in the JCGC certainly works.

However, I think it is probably important to note that in that race the dynamics of the race worked AGAINST Slew, and he still turned in that performance. That is why his reputation grew even in defeat. In the case of the recent BCC, the race set up IN FAVOR of Zenyatta. So I certainly do not think her performance was anywhere close to what Slew did in '78.

That being said, if you told me before the race that the pace was going to be what it was and that the race would have totally melted down the way it did, I would have predicted that Zito's and Baffert's 3yo colts would have finished in front of Zenyatta. That's why I wagered on LaL. Zenyatta flew by both of them down the stretch, and nearly got to Blame too, so because of that, I think she's better now than I did before the race. But that doesn't mean that she did what Slew did or (even more preposterously) that she would deserve or get less credit if she had won.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I continue to vehemently disagree with this statement of yours: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race." However, I think you have recognized the ridiculousness of that statement and (in your way) sort of retracted it so we'll let that go.

That has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion you are trying to have. As I've already said about 50 times, I do think more of Zenyatta after the race than I did going into the race. So, in that way the analogy to Slew in the JCGC certainly works.

However, I think it is probably important to note that in that race the dynamics of the race worked AGAINST Slew, and he still turned in that performance. That is why his reputation grew even in defeat. In the case of the recent BCC, the race set up IN FAVOR of Zenyatta. So I certainly do not think her performance was anywhere close to what Slew did in '78.

That being said, if you told me before the race that the pace was going to be what it was and that the race would have totally melted down the way it did, I would have predicted that Zito's and Baffert's 3yo colts would have finished in front of Zenyatta. That's why I wagered on LaL. Zenyatta flew by both of them down the stretch, and nearly got to Blame too, so because of that, I think she's better now than I did before the race. But that doesn't mean that she did what Slew did or (even more preposterously) that she would deserve or get less credit if she had won.

I too thought about pointing out the race shape of the Slew race vs the race shape of the BCC, but I concluded that it would be pointless, as he'd be unwilling to try to understand the difference between the two races.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The board you got banned from? Seems like you seem to find fights where you go also.

I'm not picking a fight. I'm explaining to you why people often misunderstand you. It's because you pretend you are smart and it comes off very confusing.

Instead of addressing what is said you change the goalposts in some sort of "gotcha" game that you always lose. It's pretty amusing actually.

Yes, I am extremely proud of not bending over to PaceAdvantage over there. What's your excuse for still being over there. Ummm...I wonder, check the colour of you nose.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I continue to vehemently disagree with this statement of yours: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race." However, I think you have recognized the ridiculousness of that statement and (in your way) sort of retracted it so we'll let that go.

That has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion you are trying to have. As I've already said about 50 times, I do think more of Zenyatta after the race than I did going into the race. So, in that way the analogy to Slew in the JCGC certainly works.

However, I think it is probably important to note that in that race the dynamics of the race worked AGAINST Slew, and he still turned in that performance. That is why his reputation grew even in defeat. In the case of the recent BCC, the race set up IN FAVOR of Zenyatta. So I certainly do not think her performance was anywhere close to what Slew did in '78.

That being said, if you told me before the race that the pace was going to be what it was and that the race would have totally melted down the way it did, I would have predicted that Zito's and Baffert's 3yo colts would have finished in front of Zenyatta. That's why I wagered on LaL. Zenyatta flew by both of them down the stretch, and nearly got to Blame too, so because of that, I think she's better now than I did before the race. But that doesn't mean that she did what Slew did or (even more preposterously) that she would deserve or get less credit if she had won.

I disagree whether she won by a nose or lost by a nose, in the context of doubt whether she can handle dirt. A win or loss is not going a huge swing in sentiment with critics and fans alike. The question has been answered. Obcourse a win is better record wise, that is obvious. But I think you would agree that was not the main question we were waiting for the last 3 years.

[horseofcourse]

I thought it was a very fair article by My Beyer and was on point. I like Zenyatta. That's it.

[tector]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Enjoyed the article … but don't buy his high opinion of RA

Thought she was overrated last year … and her disappointing 2010 campaign helped to prove that.

It rained today, therefore it rained last week, too.

Start with Aristotle and tell me when you get to David Hume.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by CSC

Yes, I am extremely proud of not bending over to PaceAdvantage over there. What's your excuse for still being over there. Ummm...I wonder, check the colour of you nose.

Another wrong take on something. Keep them coming.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Another wrong take on something. Keep them coming.

Speaking of wrong takes Dahoss, what is your take on your 2 horses you touted wholeheartedly this year, Quality Road and Rachel? What type of excuses can you make for them today...Not a great year for you was it?

[CSC]

I know I would be speechless also.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by CSC

Speaking of wrong takes Dahoss, what is your take on your 2 horses you touted wholeheartedly this year, Quality Road and Rachel? What type of excuses can you make for them today...Not a great year for you was it?

Shocking...a deflection and another wrong take. I've given my opinion on Rachel many times. You know this. Wholeheartedly touted them? That's stupid even for you. Quality Road is a good horse. He's a lot better than his race on Saturday. Rachel is a good horse also. Weird, when she gets beat a head she's awful, but when Zenyatta does she is Seattle Slew. How's that work?

But what does that have to do with anything? I liked Blame in the Classic. I bet Blame in the Classic and Quality Road wasn't on any of my tickets.

Just sayin'

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Then either you misunderstood what I wrote or the context was not the way I intended it. When I say something like Zenyatta lost nothing in defeat, comparing it to Seattle Slew's defeat. I expect a person of knowledege, as I expect from you to know exactly the context I was using it as. If the wording confused you, I duelly regret this. Now that you understand the analogy do you not agree in Mig and Haskin's view?

The difference is that Seattle Slews valiant loss came after he had been an undefeated TC winner and overcame terrible management to win several truly great races. Zenyatta's is basically the measure of her greatness.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Shocking...a deflection and another wrong take. I've given my opinion on Rachel many times. You know this. Wholeheartedly touted them? That's stupid even for you. Quality Road is a good horse. He's a lot better than his race on Saturday. Rachel is a good horse also. Weird, when she gets beat a head she's awful, but when Zenyatta does she is Seattle Slew. How's that work?

But what does that have to do with anything? I liked Blame in the Classic. I bet Blame in the Classic and Quality Road wasn't on any of my tickets.

Just sayin'

I love your playbook of replies Hossy, I've seen this movie for a year now with your play pals at PA, Shocking, deflection, even stupid for you...ect...you forgot delusional, another of your other favs. If you want to elicit a response, try something fresh man.

2nd to Zardana, Persistantly is not something to brag about when you are Rachel, is it? Her 2nd to UB does make her look abit better today, but let's face, you and I know you were way off the boat when you overrated these 2 earlier this year, just as you did for Rail Trip, another mistake by you, and though you hate to admit it, and throw up your standard answers of deflection, your opinion was dreadfully wrong about them all. We both know this, but keep trying. I know you like to say you always get the last laugh, but this laugh will always be on you. You know and I know it.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I thought it was a very fair article by My Beyer and was on point. I like Zenyatta. That's it.

Amen.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

It's all about opportunity and need. In other parts of the world, there has always been a huge disparity between the purses of male and female races so once a female showed she was good enough to try it, it made sense to run her against the boys because the purses just weren't worth it in female races. Over the years as female purses have improved, the mentality has stayed the same. They understand what Americans don't seem to and that is that if given the chance, girls can compete. Here, while the purses aren't equal, they are big enough for the girls to keep them in their own division. You'll get the occassional attempt but then it's usually followed by a return to their own sex. If Zenyatta were trained anywhere else, once she won the Classic, she would have basically stayed in open competition. As others have said, I agree that the reason you haven't seen it more is because of lack of opportunity and not because of a lack of ability.

Just as an aside, after the race I was even more pissed at Zenyatta's connections than before. I really feel cheated because they deprived us of seeing some really great things. She could have run away and hid in the SA Hcp, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic. She could have come east and done some things. Instead, they stayed ultra conservative. I think that had they won some of those other big races, they'd have built up some credits and could withstand a loss in the Classic, sort of like Curlin in 2008 and Cigar in 1996. But by playing it the way they did, they left themselves no room for error and even though many walked away thinking Zenyatta ran the better race, she still lost and that should end any arguments for her to be HOY. To me, it's either Blame or Goldikova.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by CSC

Still quiet...This exerpt from Mr. Beyer should get the critics riled up:

However, Zenyatta's fans can make a reasonable claim that she should be considered the greatest U.S. filly or mare of all time. Any argument on the subject will be complicated by the fact that Zenyatta's one-dimensional stretch-running style would put her at a tactical disadvantage on the dirt in a hypothetical matchup against other great fillies such as Ruffian and Rachel Alexandra. But Zenyatta's historic winning streak and her two performances in the Classic constitute a formidable body of work, and nobody ought to hold her one defeat against her.

I've always said that in a hypothetical race between Rachel and Zenyatta, if the distance was 9F and it was a race only open to fillies and mares that Rachel would have the edge because "average" Grade 1 fillies and mares typically would not have enough quality to keep her honest on the lead.

However, if they met at 9F in a race open to Grade 1 males also, I think Zenyatta would have the edge because average Grade 1 males would be of similar quality to both the super star girls and keep Rachel honest allowing Zenyatta to beat her.

If the met at 10F Rachel would need help to beat her no matter what.

I think Zenyatta's connections understood that also and that's why they wanted to get her in the Classic where they would have an enormous advantage because the pace would at least be honest and it would be 10F.

In fact, I think Rachel's connections understood that also and that's why they avoided 10F last year and dropped out after her performance this year at 10F under pressure (sub par or not).

[CSC]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I've always said that in a hypothetical race between Rachel and Zenyatta, if the distance was 9F and it was a race only open to fillies and mares that Rachel would have the edge because "average" Grade 1 fillies and mares typically would not have enough quality to keep her honest on the lead.

However, if they met at 9F in a race open to Grade 1 males also, I think Zenyatta would have the edge because average Grade 1 males would be of similar quality to both the super star girls and keep Rachel honest allowing Zenyatta to beat her.

If the met at 10F Rachel would need help to beat no matter what.

I think Zenyatta's connections understood that also and that's why they wanted to get her in the Classic where they would have an enormous advantage because the pace would at least be honest and it would be 10F.

In fact, I think Rachel's connections understood that also and that's why they avoided 10F last year and dropped out after her performance this year at 10F under pressure (sub par or not).

Looks like I won't get any work done today, yes I agree, in a match race Rachel would have the advantage. With Life at 10's situation Fri, maybe Rachel wins the ladies distaff, she finishes no worst than 2nd in my opinion, if she runs in the classic she probably finishes towards the rear.