Entire ACA upheld by Supreme Court

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Riot

Naw. Your head is exploding

Wow, you are so clever aren't you.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Danzig

yeah, i know. everyone knows that something had to be done to fix the health care mess.
you'd think more would be unhappy that obama made a deal with pharma and the health insurers to produce this bloated abortion of a health 'fix'. but, hey, why worry? this only will cause current medicaid spendiing to explode-and many states are already hurting with their current budget. so, eventually taxes will have to be increased dramatically to pay for all these 'fixes'.

better to have taken a hit jobs-wise in the short run (bcbs, aetna, humana, etc would all have shut down) and have a proper fix in the long run. but no, let's just make a confusing patchwork of rules and regulations and subsidize a family of four with almost 70k in income, we'll worry about how to pay for it all later.
so, i'll keep paying monthly for health insurance, as i always have. i won't see any price decreases...but there will be a corresponding increase in taxes, because how else will increased medicaid and those subsidies be paid for? it would have been better to just have everyone pay a tax for health care, cradle to grave coverage, because then i wouldn't have hundreds per month going to united healthcare anymore. i'll still have that to pay, and new taxes coming as well.

But haven't you heard, 40 million more Americans are going to get health insurance coverage and the cost of healtcare is going to go down!

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that is for sale, great price.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pointman

But haven't you heard, 40 million more Americans are going to get health insurance coverage and the cost of healtcare is going to go down!

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that is for sale, great price.

It's sad you don't believe in free-market capitalism.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Riot

It's sad you don't believe in free-market capitalism.

LOL, this is one of your most delusional statements yet! I criticize a decision that allows the government to force Americans to purchase something or be penalized and takes an entire industry out of the free market and put under government control and you claim I don't believe in free market capitalism!

The fantasy world of Riot, please get your meds ASAP. Now the rest of us are forced to pay for it so there are no more excuses.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pointman

LOL, this is one of your most delusional statements yet! I criticize a decision that allows the government to force Americans to purchase something or be penalized and takes an entire industry out of the free market and put under government control and you claim I don't believe in free market capitalism!

The fantasy world of Riot, please get your meds ASAP. Now the rest of us are forced to pay for it so there are no more excuses.

You make a passionate case, unfiltered by rational argument And resorting to your fallback, name-calling and personal attack.

Dude. Get yourself some prozac or something.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pointman

But haven't you heard, 40 million more Americans are going to get health insurance coverage and the cost of healtcare is going to go down!

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that is for sale, great price.

that's impossible and illogical to assume. but i know that's not your thinking.
there's no way the cost of healthcare will go down. insurance companies are just chomping at the bit to add to their roles-but that also adds to the claims they will be paying.
then there's the mound of 'freebies' added on that will be covered 'at no cost'- but that cost will be included in the premiums.
kids to age 26 on their parents' policies-another increase(as an aside, why 26? kids are into their majority by then, by several years). i had all three of my children by age 26-i'm sure my parents would have been thrilled to have had to pay for me to be on their policy all that time, rather than on my husbands. no doubt the with child portion of said policy would have paid for all that maternity care.
congress said the price tag for this new program must be under one trillion dollars. cbo already adjusted that tag to over one trillion earlier this year. in other words, congress was duped.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

It's sad you don't believe in free-market capitalism.

LOL - yeah - more demand and decreasing supply ALWAYS leads to lower prices ... Brilliant.

[MaTH716]

How does this work with all the now legal, illegal's living in the country? Not to mention all the regular illegals that are here?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

LOL - yeah - more demand and decreasing supply ALWAYS leads to lower prices ... Brilliant.

Nice to see you realize that it doesn't always work!

My, my - a day of breakthroughs on Derby Trail

[Riot]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

How does this work with all the now legal, illegal's living in the country? Not to mention all the regular illegals that are here?

The same way healthcare for people not legally within the US works now

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that's impossible and illogical to assume. but i know that's not your thinking.
there's no way the cost of healthcare will go down. insurance companies are just chomping at the bit to add to their roles-but that also adds to the claims they will be paying.
then there's the mound of 'freebies' added on that will be covered 'at no cost'- but that cost will be included in the premiums.
kids to age 26 on their parents' policies-another increase(as an aside, why 26? kids are into their majority by then, by several years). i had all three of my children by age 26-i'm sure my parents would have been thrilled to have had to pay for me to be on their policy all that time, rather than on my husbands. no doubt the with child portion of said policy would have paid for all that maternity care.
congress said the price tag for this new program must be under one trillion dollars. cbo already adjusted that tag to over one trillion earlier this year. in other words, congress was duped.

Except that you have to compare the cost of the program with the cost of doing nothing. Our current health care system is not sustainable. We had a choice- reform, or decide that the poor and middle class need to be left to die. Which is certainly a position, and, judging from some of the comments on this board, one that some posters here would be just fine with, but it's not the kind of America I believe in ("provide for the general welfare," as is said in the Preamble, is more like the nation I believe in). I don't think it's the kind of nation you believe in, either.

I agree with you 100% that universal Medicare would be the best and cheapest option, but unfortunately in today's political climate, that was never a possibility.

I would be surprised if your health care costs go up due to the ACA. I really would (and remember, it starts in 2014, so any increases companies make now that they blame on ACA are bs lies).

The main group of people who will find themselves liable for the tax are singles with an income of about $30,000- $80,000. Below that they will likely be covered by expanded Medicaid (as, other than Arizona and Texas and a few other Neo-Confederate bastions of "f*ck the poor" states, I don't see many refusing the additional Medicaid monies), and above that, they likely already have health insurance. When I was making $30,000 a year, I paid over $3,000 a year for private health insurance (my job didn't offer it). It sucked, but I managed. Those people can certainly afford $600 a year for a tax penalty.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nice to see you realize that it doesn't always work!

My, my - a day of breakthroughs on Derby Trail

Uhhh - taking this nice and slow now:

Increasing demand raises prices, even with constant supply.
Decreasing demand lowers prices, even with constant supply.
Increasing supply lowers prices, even with constant demand.
Decreasing supply raises prices, even with constant demand.

Soooo, increasing demand and decreasing supply during the same time period will cause a largeincrease in prices.

And yes - the laws of supply and demand always work, just like the laws of gravity.

Re-read that again until it makes sense to you.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Uhhh - taking this nice and slow now:

Increasing demand raises prices, even with constant supply.
Decreasing demand lowers prices, even with constant supply.
Increasing supply lowers prices, even with constant demand.
Decreasing supply raises prices, even with constant demand.

Soooo, increasing demand and decreasing supply during the same time period will cause a largeincrease in prices.

And yes - the laws of supply and demand always work, just like the laws of gravity.

Re-read that again until it makes sense to you.

Except we don't live in an unfettered, true free-market marketplace.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

How does this work with all the now legal, illegal's living in the country? Not to mention all the regular illegals that are here?

supposedly illegals won't be covered. one of the systems exchanges will have to be linked to is INS-in order to make sure anyone applying is here legally.
the state exchanges will also have to be linked in with the irs, because premiums, stop losses, etc will be determined by last years income. but keep in mind, things don't always start and end on 12/31/20--, so when someone turns a year older, or if you divorce during the year, or there are other changes, then when you file your taxes, you have to pay back any overpayments of premium subsidies.
speaking of subsidies, a family of four with almost 70k in income will receive subsidies to help pay for their health care. their deductibles and stop losses also will be 'subsidized'. now, in ny city, i can see why that would need subsidized...here in arkansas, where the cost of living is incredibly low-that's a joke. that's damn good money around here. which is exactly why the levels should be handled on a state by state basis, not on federal poverty levels. what pays in many areas doesn't in others. how's it feel to know you'll be helping to pay for insurance for someone well in the top 10% of income in this state??? give you a warm, fuzzy feeling?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Except that you have to compare the cost of the program with the cost of doing nothing. Our current health care system is not sustainable. We had a choice- reform, or decide that the poor and middle class need to be left to die. Which is certainly a position, and, judging from some of the comments on this board, one that some posters here would be just fine with, but it's not the kind of America I believe in ("provide for the general welfare," as is said in the Preamble, is more like the nation I believe in). I don't think it's the kind of nation you believe in, either.

I agree with you 100% that universal Medicare would be the best and cheapest option, but unfortunately in today's political climate, that was never a possibility.

I would be surprised if your health care costs go up due to the ACA. I really would (and remember, it starts in 2014, so any increases companies make now that they blame on ACA are bs lies).

The main group of people who will find themselves liable for the tax are singles with an income of about $30,000- $80,000. Below that they will likely be covered by expanded Medicaid (as, other than Arizona and Texas and a few other Neo-Confederate bastions of "f*ck the poor" states, I don't see many refusing the additional Medicaid monies), and above that, they likely already have health insurance. When I was making $30,000 a year, I paid over $3,000 a year for private health insurance (my job didn't offer it). It sucked, but I managed. Those people can certainly afford $600 a year for a tax penalty.

except i never advocated doing nothing, but i appreciate the dissertation. my premiums will continue to increase as they always have, along with copays and deductibles.
but now to go along with that, there will be increase in taxes, because this program will turn out to be far more expensive than people think-the cbo already adjusted the cost upwards once. and since medicare, medicaid and other federal programs have all come in at a far higher price than initially proposed, i feel safe in assuming this one will as well.
as for the states, if they swell their roles, they'll get an increase. or they can grow no more and keep current funding. they certainly won't see a better bottom line by increasing through aca.
oh, and i pay over 3k a year right now, and that's group coverage. not sure why anyone assumes that group is cheaper-it's not. my son bought his own, individual plan and selected his deductible-it cost him less than going with his employer sponsored coverage, which can turn no one down, so the price is higher for some.


i can't help but think that a bad fix is no fix at all. will more harm than good be the ultimate outcome? as the adage says, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. a wish and a dream still have to be paid for.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

supposedly illegals won't be covered. one of the systems exchanges will have to be linked to is INS-in order to make sure anyone applying is here legally.
the state exchanges will also have to be linked in with the irs, because premiums, stop losses, etc will be determined by last years income. but keep in mind, things don't always start and end on 12/31/20--, so when someone turns a year older, or if you divorce during the year, or there are other changes, then when you file your taxes, you have to pay back any overpayments of premium subsidies.
speaking of subsidies, a family of four with almost 70k in income will receive subsidies to help pay for their health care. their deductibles and stop losses also will be 'subsidized'. now, in ny city, i can see why that would need subsidized...here in arkansas, where the cost of living is incredibly low-that's a joke. that's damn good money around here. which is exactly why the levels should be handled on a state by state basis, not on federal poverty levels. what pays in many areas doesn't in others. how's it feel to know you'll be helping to pay for insurance for someone well in the top 10% of income in this state??? give you a warm, fuzzy feeling?

Thanks for answering Dani.

[Danzig]

another question....

can anyone tell me of any existing tax that is levied for not doing something? not buying, not selling, not owning, not working? not partaking in any way, so you pay for non-participation?
i opted to remain on a well, rather than tie into city/county water. wonder how long before they figure this one out and start billing??

[Honu]

On of one of those articles Riot posted I answered the health care questions and found out the ACA doesnt do anything at all for me and my partner. Our combined income puts us about 2k into another bracket. Unless the Feds wont consider our household income as combined because they dont consider our domestic partnership as valid, which they must because the IRS taxed us for the first time as combined income because Ca. is a community property state, which in my opinon is b ulls hit in light of the fact that they wont let my partner have my SS bennies when I die. Lucky I have insurance thru my gf's job. When I had my ACL transplant last year the hospital actualy gave me a discount for having insurance

[Danzig]

another question...

if i don't put my 22 year old daughter back on my health policy, do i get a fine? or does she?

[Riot]

http://taxfoundation.org/article/how...-bill-financed



Update: Per the suggestion of Washington Post writer Ezra Klein, we have posted more detail pertaining to what is in some of the larger categories in the pie chart above.

Main Components in Net Cuts to Medicare ($416.5 billion)

Reductions in annual updates to Medicare FFS payment rates = $196 billion cut
Medicare Advantage rates based upon fee-for-service rates = $136 billion cut
Medicare Part D "donut hole" fix = $42.6 billion increase
Payment Adjustments for Home Health Care = $39.7 billion cut
Medicare Disproportionate Share Hospital (DSH) Payments = $22.1 billion cut
Revision to the Medicare Improvement Fund = $20.7 billion cut
Reducing Part D Premium Subsidy for High-Income Beneficiaries = $10.7 billion cut
Interactions between Medicare programs = $29.1 billion cut

Main Components in Other Provisions ($149 billion)

Associated effects of coverage provisions on revenues = $46 billion
Exclusion of unprocessed fuels from the cellulosic biofuel producer credit = $23.6 billion
Require information reporting on payments to corporations = $17.1 billion
Raise 7.5% AGI floor on medical expenses deduction to 10% = $15.2 billion
Limitations to the use of HSAs, MSAs, FSAs, etc. = $19.4 billion

Other Net Spending Cuts ($52 billion)

Education reforms = $19 billion cut, which is the difference between approximately $58 billion in spending reductions via reform of the student loan program and approximately $39 billion in greater spending on higher education programs, most notably Pell Grants
Community Living Assistance Services and Supports = $70 billion in cuts
Category is netted lower by increases in other health programs such as public health programs and spending on community health centers