BC Sprint Purse Being Withheld

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

FTFY.

What is wrong with you?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

FTFY.

Wow.... Maybe it is you that is miserable cause there is nothing this guy wrote deserving of that kind of outburst. Outrageous and doesn't paint you in a very good light. Were you hacked? Is this Shtick?

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by jms62

Wow.... Maybe it is you that is miserable cause there is nothing this guy wrote deserving of that kind of outburst. Outrageous and doesn't paint you in a very good light. Were you hacked? Is this Shtick?

In his defense there are shots being taken on other boards that appear to be KC.

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

In his defense there are shots being taken on other boards that appear to be KC.

They aren't me. I am KidCruz only.

[jnunan4759]

I agree with Steve. This situation wouldn't have happened years ago because the efforts hadn't been made yet to do this kind of testing and at these type of levels. There are still a lot of variables to be resolved, which this situation has highlighted.

However, they do have to do something about compounded drugs. That is ridiculous. There are little or no controls.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by jnunan4759

I agree with Steve. This situation wouldn't have happened years ago because the efforts hadn't been made yet to do this kind of testing and at these type of levels. There are still a lot of variables to be resolved, which this situation has highlighted.

However, they do have to do something about compounded drugs. That is ridiculous. There are little or no controls.

Uhm the biggest control is in place and always has been in place..You don't have to use such drugs. You don't have to practice this type of regiment. I don't think Ellis did a darn thing shady BUT he got caught speeding. He clearly has experience using this drug.

Would more have been done to prevent the horse from running if the field was larger?

If this was a trainer with less backstretch cred would BC scratched horse?

Whatever drug guidelines you set up people are going to exploit to the N'th degree.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Wow. Over the last 30 some odd years (out here) this has been our cleanest trainer. He'd rather lose than win the wrong way. Always been too conservative for many owners' taste.

[philcski]

Those that are saying "I want my money for the Drefong-MYB exacta" yadda yadda think about this: Caffeine has a half life of about 6 hours. Stanozolol (injected, which I'm assuming was the administering method) has a half life of about 24 hours. We are talking about 60 half-lifes- so the performance equivalent of that coffee you had at Starbucks 2 weeks ago. Impact: Zero, zip, nada.

For full disclosure, I completely pitched Masochistic, so I lost money on intrarace bets.

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by philcski

Those that are saying "I want my money for the Drefong-MYB exacta" yadda yadda think about this: Caffeine has a half life of about 6 hours. Stanozolol (injected, which I'm assuming was the administering method) has a half life of about 24 hours. We are talking about 60 half-lifes- so the performance equivalent of that coffee you had at Starbucks 2 weeks ago. Impact: Zero, zip, nada.

For full disclosure, I completely pitched Masochistic, so I lost money on intrarace bets.

People wager on other people drinking Starbucks?

There was a systemic failure here during the biggest weekend of racing in the US.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

People wager on other people drinking Starbucks?

There was a systemic failure here during the biggest weekend of racing in the US.

System worked the way it was structured, it didn't fail. The system structure is flawed. Your post suggests corruption, which may or may not be intended. I agree the horse in theory should not have run. I don't agree the system was in place to prevent him from running and CHRB elected to allow him to run, in essence defrauding the bettors. It's one thing to say the system is broke let's fix it and another to imply it failed to operate as intended. Connects were given information and CHRB expected them to make a decision based on that information. Connects were of opinion based on previous dosing practice that gelding would test clean. oops

[jms62]

Originally Posted by freddymo

System worked the way it was structured, it didn't fail. The system structure is flawed. Your post suggests corruption, which may or may not be intended. I agree the horse in theory should not have run. I don't agree the system was in place to prevent him from running and CHRB elected to allow him to run, in essence defrauding the bettors. It's one thing to say the system is broke let's fix it and another to imply it failed to operate as intended. Connects were given information and CHRB expected them to make a decision based on that information. Connects were of opinion based on previous dosing practice that gelding would test clean. oops

I don't know how you can get that he suggested corruption from that post. I didn't get that at all.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by philcski

Those that are saying "I want my money for the Drefong-MYB exacta" yadda yadda think about this: Caffeine has a half life of about 6 hours. Stanozolol (injected, which I'm assuming was the administering method) has a half life of about 24 hours. We are talking about 60 half-lifes- so the performance equivalent of that coffee you had at Starbucks 2 weeks ago. Impact: Zero, zip, nada.

For full disclosure, I completely pitched Masochistic, so I lost money on intrarace bets.

This is a dubious position. 2 days after galloping in an allowance the gelding was treated for bleeding and appetite enhancement. Within 48 hours after a stroll THEY KNEW the horse needed therapeutic anabolic steroids in order to compete at maximum levels 70 days later and test clean(or so they thought.
I get the trace elements in the geldings system had 0 impact that day on the horses effort but is that really the spirit of banning them from performance enhancement? This horse needed steroids to trainer harder keep weight on so that on race day he would be at optimum fitness. And there are several professional that have written that anabolic steroids continue to have dramatic benefit even after complete detectable withdrawal.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by freddymo

This is a dubious position. 2 days after galloping in an allowance the gelding was treated for bleeding and appetite enhancement. Within 48 hours after a stroll THEY KNEW the horse needed therapeutic anabolic steroids in order to compete at maximum levels 70 days later and test clean(or so they thought.
I get the trace elements in the geldings system had 0 impact that day on the horses effort but is that really the spirit of banning them from performance enhancement? This horse needed steroids to trainer harder keep weight on so that on race day he would be at optimum fitness. And there are several professional that have written that anabolic steroids continue to have dramatic benefit even after complete detectable withdrawal.

We all know what Ellis was doing here. He was giving the horse as much steroid as he thought he could possibly get away with and stay within the rules. This wasn't therapeutic. But he didn't know as much as he thought he did about using it and it burned him.

How do you tell the owner you have to scratch from the race you've been doping...err...planning for all year?

[Indian Charlie]

I want to know if Ellis tried to enter Masochistic in the Malibu!

[Alabama Stakes]

Yes but was denied

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I want to know if Ellis tried to enter Masochistic in the Malibu!

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Yes but was denied

Needs to test clear before running.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We all know what Ellis was doing here. He was giving the horse as much steroid as he thought he could possibly get away with and stay within the rules. This wasn't therapeutic. But he didn't know as much as he thought he did about using it and it burned him.

How do you tell the owner you have to scratch from the race you've been doping...err...planning for all year?

Craig.. I get that despite being fully aware of the difference you're eager to paint every horseman with the same brush, but to call the Ellis training plan 'doping' is a disservice to the broader discussion.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I want to know if Ellis tried to enter Masochistic in the Malibu!

This is very good. Not sure how many get the reference anymore though.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Craig.. I get that despite being fully aware of the difference you're eager to paint every horseman with the same brush, but to call the Ellis training plan 'doping' is a disservice to the broader discussion.

"Training Plan"? Ok the definition is now in place, a Training Plan is defined and can include the administration of banned race day drugs on a specific date based on guidelines set forth for a previously manufactured drug that is no longer available.

Let's see if I can use it in a sentence. We should claim that horse, he will go into my training program, and will race better.

In my training program we see horses able to train harder and eat well even if they have trouble keeping weight on when trained aggressively.

Once a horse is in my training program they race every 70 days and test clean of any administered compounded banned race day anabolic steroids.


good grief please dont suggest that calling a spade a spade detracts from potential for the Industry to redine the definition of a "training program circa 2016"

Do I think Ellis cheated NO. He is smart great trainer. He learned what to do legally to give his barn and connections the best opportunity to compete and earn. Did he push envelope to edge cross the line, and make a horrid decision, of course.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Craig.. I get that despite being fully aware of the difference you're eager to paint every horseman with the same brush, but to call the Ellis training plan 'doping' is a disservice to the broader discussion.

You are painting me with a broad brush. I'm addressing one guy that I think was trying to get the maximum amount of steroids into a horse before the big race. It isn't like this is the only horse he does it with. A recently claimed filly went on the 60 day vet list two days after being claimed. He does this all the time. I just do see any way this is therapeutic.

He found a way to get around the alleged "steroids ban", until he didn't. You know who else does it a lot? Peter Miller. I don't see Bob Baffert's name popping up repeatedly on the vet's list for 60 days. I don't see lots of other name trainers, so I can only assume they aren't using steroids. It isn't a broad brush at all, it is about pointing out the guys that are doing shady things playing around the edges of the rules.

And yes, I agree there were other issues regarding this race that should be addressed. Are they more or less serious? I'm not sure to be honest. The horse never should have been allowed to race in the BC Sprint. But let us not forget the root of the problem...Ellis routinely using steroids to train, all the while skipping G1 races to do it.