Whale's past post sets off alarm

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Dead on here. The tote systems that racing are using are behind the times. For example, we're told by the tote companies that the reason that there aren't future pools with more than 24 wagering interests is that their systems can't handle it. In this day and age, they've got to be kidding. If they're not, then their systems are not as sophisticated as we're led to believe.

Perception is very important here. I realize that many place their wagers at the last few minutes to post, but I also know that people can adapt to changes in circumstances. If wagering were closed one minute to post, people would adjust over time. As I frequently say to friends of mine, gamblers rarely get shut out on a bet they really want to make.

That is the truest comment in this thread. They absolutely would adjust.

I wonder if Maloney was expecting this to happen and thus was ready to make his wagers after the race had started. I don't know how others do but whenever I'm in line to place my bet, I'm watching the monitor to see how much time I have. Almost without fail, I have a guy in front of me that takes 10 minutes to make a $2 win bet on a horse and I'm yelling out "come on!" When that last horse goes in, if I haven't gotten to the window, I turn away, figuring that I didn't make it. I wonder if Maloney was watching the race, saw that it had started and wagering hadn't closed and THEN went to try to take advantage or if he knew this was something that regularly happens and was already prepared to take advantage of it. My gut feeling tells me that if he or anyone else is still at the windows attempting to place bets up to 15 seconds after the start of a race, this is something that happens at other times and he was in position to try and take advantage.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Also, I'd like to hear the teller's explanation for punching the tickets knowing that the race had already gone off.

That's unacceptable, regardless of the explanation that the track is trying to grab every last wagering dollar on each race.

I remember an incident at Arlington in the mid 80s. The gate opens and a 30-1 goes to the lead. A couple tellers realize the machines are still live. Tellers start betting. When the 30-1 shot who went to the lead crossed the wire in front, a near riot ensued when he was now 5-1 on the board. THey did catch the tellers but some real bad PR being the lead story on the 10 pm news. I've always been curious if they could skim some money off the top with late windows; as long as they weren't too greedy, they probably wouldn't get caught. What percentage of the time do payoffs go up from when the horses are loading into the gate? That percentage must be very low since so many winners get hit hard late.

[golfer]

Originally Posted by JJP

I remember an incident at Arlington in the mid 80s. The gate opens and a 30-1 goes to the lead. A couple tellers realize the machines are still live. Tellers start betting. When the 30-1 shot who went to the lead crossed the wire in front, a near riot ensued when he was now 5-1 on the board. THey did catch the tellers but some real bad PR being the lead story on the 10 pm news. I've always been curious if they could skim some money off the top with late windows; as long as they weren't too greedy, they probably wouldn't get caught. What percentage of the time do payoffs go up from when the horses are loading into the gate? That percentage must be very low since so many winners get hit hard late.

As far as changing odds are concerned, it's only visible to the public if the money is bet in the Win pool... if it were placed in the exotic pools, all you would see would be surprisingly low payouts, which we do see all the time (although we can't be sure as to why).

I have really only been shut out of one bet that I absolutely wanted to make.. that was over a year ago, and it occurred when lightning struck the simulcast parlor, and the electricity went out with 7 minutes to post... came back on as they were loading.

[golfer]

Dave Johnson (who was the moderator of the symposium) just said on his Sirius radio show that Mike Maloney claims that his specific story about betting after a race starts was NOT an isolated incident!

[Riot]

That is the truest comment in this thread. They absolutely would adjust.

I know I wouldn't, King. Not unfrequently I like to see odds and wager up until the first few horses are entering the gate. And if there is a horse that won't load, gate problem, etc, I like to get a cancellation and nearly always try and get a cover wager in.

I really don't see this as huge problem in the sport. I understand why odds change as the horses are going down the backstretch. The last thing I think of is nefarious doings.

I wonder if Maloney was expecting this to happen and thus was ready to make his wagers after the race had started.

I deeply doubt it. He said he simply repeated wagers he had already constructed and made. If he knew it could come, I would think a reasonable person would have planned for this contingency and covered or had some reconstructed bets ready to place.

My gut feeling tells me that if he or anyone else is still at the windows attempting to place bets up to 15 seconds after the start of a race, this is something that happens at other times and he was in position to try and take advantage.

If I'm at the window as horses are about to go into the gate, trying to get bets down, I'm no longer watching the monitor as I did in line, I am watching the machine to ensure the teller is actually punching the correct numbers as I spell them out. And I'll keep reeling off the bets I want to make, until she tells me I can't. I can't do that, and watch the monitor, at the same time.

Fifteen seconds just isn't long enough for me to stand in front of the teller at the window, turn to watch the break on the monitor, consider what is unfolding, then tell her and have her place those reconstructed bets for me.

Maybe I'm just slow

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Would he rather they close the pools with 2 minutes to post? It was a one time isolated incident. Get over it.

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, I tend to start at the beginning. I must say this is a bullshit post. Why in the hell would bettors have any reason to believe it is a one time incident? It should never, ever happen. We've been told a million times it can't happen. I laughed every time I heard that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, I tend to start at the beginning. I must say this is a bullshit post. Why in the hell would bettors have any reason to believe it is a one time incident? It should never, ever happen. We've been told a million times it can't happen. I laughed every time I heard that.

If this is happening all the time why is this issue almost never discussed? If it is such a problem then why dont I ever hear about it happening? I hear all the time about every other bitch that people have in this industry a hundred times over but for such a major problem it seems like it is rarely mentioned.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If this is happening all the time why is this issue almost never discussed? If it is such a problem then why dont I ever hear about it happening? I hear all the time about every other bitch that people have in this industry a hundred times over but for such a major problem it seems like it is rarely mentioned.

Because it doesn't. One blowhard makes a statement saying he bet halfway through a race and everyones panties get into a twist. But it sounds to me like people now want to get shut out with 2 MTP.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If this is happening all the time why is this issue almost never discussed? If it is such a problem then why dont I ever hear about it happening? I hear all the time about every other bitch that people have in this industry a hundred times over but for such a major problem it seems like it is rarely mentioned.

you've never heard anyone complain about late odds changes?

the experience of a 4-1 shot taking an easy lead and crossing the finish line 5-2?

i can't remember when this wasn't something people talked about. and the answer is always the same. the wagering platform is secure and no one is getting bets in after the gate opens.

[ALostTexan]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

That is the truest comment in this thread. They absolutely would adjust.

I wonder if Maloney was expecting this to happen and thus was ready to make his wagers after the race had started. I don't know how others do but whenever I'm in line to place my bet, I'm watching the monitor to see how much time I have. Almost without fail, I have a guy in front of me that takes 10 minutes to make a $2 win bet on a horse and I'm yelling out "come on!" When that last horse goes in, if I haven't gotten to the window, I turn away, figuring that I didn't make it. I wonder if Maloney was watching the race, saw that it had started and wagering hadn't closed and THEN went to try to take advantage or if he knew this was something that regularly happens and was already prepared to take advantage of it. My gut feeling tells me that if he or anyone else is still at the windows attempting to place bets up to 15 seconds after the start of a race, this is something that happens at other times and he was in position to try and take advantage.

No. This is absolutely not what happened. He was not ask anything specific about past-posting. He was ask what he felt was the best and worst thing about horse racing, from a whales perspective. He said that the security of the betting pools needed to be changed. When ask by Dave Johnson to expand on that topic, he said, for instance, he was at Keeneland betting this race at the Fair Grounds, and knew enough about the tote system to know that there was supposed to be a beep when the race was closed, and that he never heard it.

So he began testing the system. 1/8 of a mile into the race, he told the teller to punch another ticket, which went through. Then another 1/8 mile passed, and he had the teller punch another ticket, and continued every 1/8 mile until the machine finally did beep, which he claims was well after half of the race was ran. All the while, he was screaming for the Director of Mutuals to get his ass over to the window to see what was going on. There was no conspiracy between Maloney, the teller, or the Director of Mutuals to rig the system. This was simply a whale who was concerned with the system seeing a flaw in the system and showing it to someone who should be concerned, which was the Director of Mutuals.

In his talk, at least what I got out of it, Maloney seemed like this was not an isolated event, and that he at least didn't hear the beep to shut off wagering before. This was just a time that he saw a time that it could be greatly exploited, he had plenty of late tickets punched as proof, and this was a time that he had the attention of the entire racing world as he was at the Symposium on Racing and Gaming.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by ALostTexan

No. This is absolutely not what happened. He was not ask anything specific about past-posting. He was ask what he felt was the best and worst thing about horse racing, from a whales perspective. He said that the security of the betting pools needed to be changed. When ask by Dave Johnson to expand on that topic, he said, for instance, he was at Keeneland betting this race at the Fair Grounds, and knew enough about the tote system to know that there was supposed to be a beep when the race was closed, and that he never heard it.

So he began testing the system. 1/8 of a mile into the race, he told the teller to punch another ticket, which went through. Then another 1/8 mile passed, and he had the teller punch another ticket, and continued every 1/8 mile until the machine finally did beep, which he claims was well after half of the race was ran. All the while, he was screaming for the Director of Mutuals to get his ass over to the window to see what was going on. There was no conspiracy between Maloney, the teller, or the Director of Mutuals to rig the system. This was simply a whale who was concerned with the system seeing a flaw in the system and showing it to someone who should be concerned, which was the Director of Mutuals.

In his talk, at least what I got out of it, Maloney seemed like this was not an isolated event, and that he at least didn't hear the beep to shut off wagering before. This was just a time that he saw a time that it could be greatly exploited, he had plenty of late tickets punched as proof, and this was a time that he had the attention of the entire racing world as he was at the Symposium on Racing and Gaming.

This Maloney cat is a liar and a cheat. I mean come on. Do you honestly believe this story?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

I understand that, if people want to bet and know wagering will be closed a couple of minutes before post time it won't take very long to get used to.
And getting shut out of betting wasn't a problem when I first started playing in the early '90s. Back then the majority of my play was at the NYCOTBs, when guess what ? ............

Even though this should disqualify you from any rational conversation I will try. The problem with the "deadline" of posttime being closed is that the actual posttime is dependant on several things. One being that in cases of long lines at the windows the mutual manager will often add a minute or 2 to the posttime to try to get as much money into the pools as possible. Another being delays due to inquiries, loose horses, bad gate actors, weather, etc. What do you do if a horse gets loose with 3 minutes to post? Make an announcement that posttime will be extended? What about the players at other tracks, simulcast outlets or betting from home? How do you notify them? Or do you just close the betting and let people stand there for 5 minutes with live money in thier pockets? It is not as easy as some people make it out to be, Dude.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

Or do you believe we need more players complaining about seeing changes in the odds in the middle of watching a race ?

Will that be worse then the complaints of the bets not getting in?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If this is happening all the time why is this issue almost never discussed? If it is such a problem then why dont I ever hear about it happening? I hear all the time about every other bitch that people have in this industry a hundred times over but for such a major problem it seems like it is rarely mentioned.

The thing is, nobody knows how often it is happening. This came up as a fluke. There is lots of suspicion among bettors that there is past posting going on. Check just about any message board on the net. I'm not saying it is happening, but the perception among many is that it does.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why are you so obsessed with what I say? Do you want me to call them and give them a quote? I will. At least I will state my true opinion on subjects unlike most in this industry. My opinion is that this was a malfunction. Simple. Get over it. If someone comes up with some information that this was done for an advantage or is happening more than once in a blue moon then I will say that there is a serious problem. There are many people here who feel that it is not an isolated incident. Fine that is thier opinion. If someone shows me something that backs that opinion up I will admit I underestimated the problem.

I would say that there are many more fixed races in this country than there are races with past posts. Think about that for a minute. Now there is a real problem.

Perhaps he's obsessed with Hacker Craft? Alas, HC probably wouldn't respond.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Perhaps he's obsessed with Hacker Craft? Alas, HC probably wouldn't respond.

He can satisfy his HC obsession by adding him to his xmas list. I will send him COD

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmfhb411

Maybe the 1st week or two, but after that none of us would hear a peep.

I'd peep. I'd definitely prefer to retain the ability to bet, cover, cancel to break, versus having definitive odds and a closed window 1 minute to post. Too much happens in that last few minutes, too frequently.

The important thing is that no bets are made after the break, period. The odds adjusting to final in the next 10-15 seconds - that I can, and have, lived with nicely, simply through anticipation.

[Bobby Fischer]

Each track has a "stop wagering device"
In a good system this device would be tested, and monitered by a professional (seriously) it should be someone's responsibility. Ideally the tracks would be fined when the device malfunctions on/before a live race.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Why does this matter to you?

I'm obsessed with Hacker Craft. I'm trying to stop.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

Each track has a "stop wagering device"
In a good system this device would be tested, and monitered by a professional (seriously) it should be someone's responsibility. Ideally the tracks would be fined when the device malfunctions on/before a live race.

What is the deal now (how does it work) at various tracks. I only partly heard that discussion on ATR ... is it a manual signal from the mutuals manager?