Big Brown - Overrated?

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

For the last five years only, I'd go with:

3yo's only, non-sprinters

1-Smarty Jones
2-Bernardini
3-Curlin
4-Big Brown
5-Lion Heart
6-Afleet Alex
7-Barbaro
8-Street Sense
9-Flower Alley
10-Birdstone

It's a good thing your list is non-sprinters only... we wouldn't want a horse like Keyed Entry to sneak above the impeccable Lion Heart or something crazy like that.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

On Sesame Street they used to play a game called "One of these things is not like the other." I played it with your list and came up with a couple of interesting tidbits. You have two horses who actually beat older horses in their 3YO campaigns and one did it twice. You have neither of them on top. I'm not even Jewish but oy vey.

Maybe I just wasn't much of a Smarty Jones guy. I have a hard time putting him ahead of #s 2-8 on your list save Lion Heart and remember that he was only 1-1 against Birdstone.

NT

So then, in your mind beating a horse that's older means more than beating a 3yo that's better than the older horse? I mean, Easy Goer beat older in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC......so was he better than Sunday Silence, who only beat older once? If El Gato Malo beats some of these pathetic older horses out here in CA in the Goodwood, should that elevate him over Big Brown as champion 3yo if BB wins the TC and then retires? Or what about if War Pass returns and beats BB in the Travers? Would that mean that El Gato Malo is better than War Pass? Shouldn't beating the best horses mean more than beating the oldest ones? Beating older horses doesn't mean much to me if the older horses aren't any good.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by ELA

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

This is the kind of sentiment that I just don't understand. Do we really all have to be either worshipers or naysayers? I, for one, am not ready to call this horse one of the all-time greats.
But he is certainly very good, and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he does give us a "wow" performance in the Belmont.
At this point, there is simply no doubt that he is overrated. But that doesn't mean that he isn't CAPABLE of proving his most ardent supporters correct in the Belmont.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

It's a good thing your list is non-sprinters only... we wouldn't want a horse like Keyed Entry to sneak above the impeccable Lion Heart or something crazy like that.

In your opinion, after seeing that 49 and change go up in the Travers, how did you think that race was going to play out? If Lion Heart doesn't break his leg, is it that far of a stretch to assume that he could have won that race? If he does, he's a Derby runner-up, and a Haskell/Travers winner, winning the Travers while beating the Belmont winner. Where would he fit in the conversation then?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by ELA

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

And the goo-goos, even if Big Brown were to lose in the Belmont, would still maintain that he is one of the greats. He could lose by the length of the stretch and many would no doubt offer up one excuse or another.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So then, in your mind beating a horse that's older means more than beating a 3yo that's better than the older horse? I mean, Easy Goer beat older in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC......so was he better than Sunday Silence, who only beat older once? If El Gato Malo beats some of these pathetic older horses out here in CA in the Goodwood, should that elevate him over Big Brown as champion 3yo if BB wins the TC and then retires? Or what about if War Pass returns and beats BB in the Travers? Would that mean that El Gato Malo is better than War Pass? Shouldn't beating the best horses mean more than beating the oldest ones? Beating older horses doesn't mean much to me if the older horses aren't any good.

Clearly you don't understand my point. If you're not giving a 3YO extra credit for beating older horses in their 3YO season then you are presenting a very skewed set of criteria.

Once again you conveniently skirted around the fact that Curlin beat older horses twice, and they happened to be the best older horses that were available. Maybe not the best handicap division, but still older horses.

I could never agree with putting a horse like Smarty Jones ahead of Curlin in terms of respective 3YO campaigns.

NT

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In your opinion, after seeing that 49 and change go up in the Travers, how did you think that race was going to play out? If Lion Heart doesn't break his leg, is it that far of a stretch to assume that he could have won that race? If he does, he's a Derby runner-up, and a Haskell/Travers winner, winning the Travers while beating the Belmont winner. Where would he fit in the conversation then?

He was NEVER in a million years winning that Travers.

[sdjcom]

Did You Consider The Trip Factor In This Beyers? 12 Hole Fla Derby
20 Hole 4 Wide Ky Derby. If Beyers Were That Good A Gauge Of Horses We Would All Be On Easy Street. They Are A Suckers Crutch.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I could never agree with putting a horse like Smarty Jones ahead of Curlin in terms of respective 3YO campaigns.

NT

No sane person could.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by sdjcom

Did You Consider The Trip Factor In This Beyers? 12 Hole Fla Derby
20 Hole 4 Wide Ky Derby. If Beyers Were That Good A Gauge Of Horses We Would All Be On Easy Street. They Are A Suckers Crutch.

You might want to look at post #13 in this thread.

[sdjcom]

Big Brown Is Not Overated If You Compare Him To 3 Yr Olds. He Is 3 You Know. We Can't Compare Him Yet To Curlin And The Likes Because He Has Only Raced 5 Times. Curlin Is 4 Now And More Matured Get Big A Chance To Do This.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In your opinion, after seeing that 49 and change go up in the Travers, how did you think that race was going to play out? If Lion Heart doesn't break his leg, is it that far of a stretch to assume that he could have won that race? If he does, he's a Derby runner-up, and a Haskell/Travers winner, winning the Travers while beating the Belmont winner. Where would he fit in the conversation then?

If you want to play God, and talk about ifs, then you need to reassess your list. But be please careful, it's like lighting a match during drought season.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

If you want to play God, and talk about ifs, then you need to reassess your list. But be please careful, it's like lighting a match during drought season.

I'm not playing God at all. I'm just asking you about your opinion of that particular race. No right or wrong answers here.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'm not playing God at all. I'm just asking you about your opinion of that particular race. No right or wrong answers here.

Well your question becomes irrelevant if we take the biggest "if" of all into consideration... what "if" Barbaro doesn't break down in the Preakness? Basing lists on what could have beens is absolutely pointless.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Well your question becomes irrelevant if we take the biggest "if" of all into consideration... what "if" Barbaro doesn't break down in the Preakness? Basing lists on what could have beens is absolutely pointless.

Ok. I didn't think getting an opinion would be that hard. Nevermind.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by sdjcom

Big Brown Is Not Overated If You Compare Him To 3 Yr Olds. He Is 3 You Know. We Can't Compare Him Yet To Curlin And The Likes Because He Has Only Raced 5 Times. Curlin Is 4 Now And More Matured Get Big A Chance To Do This.

and we lost better than honour?

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Ok. I didn't think getting an opinion would be that hard. Nevermind.

If you want my opinion, here it is: Your list stinks.

First off all, Lion Heart is a runner-up and that only in any Triple Crown race which, based upon the skewed logic you've presented, disqualifies him to a spot well below say more than a dozen 3-year-olds included and not included in your list. But because I'm off tomorrow, I'll play.

Street Sense is a Kentucky Derby winner, a Preakness runner-up, a Jim Dandy winner, a Travers winner and a runner-up against elders in the Kentucky Cup. How, in a million years that qualifies him for a lower spot than a horse like Lion Heart is flabbergasting.

Or how Afleet Alex, who won the Arkansas Derby, was a Derby runner-up, a Preakness winner and a Belmont winner is below Lion Heart is good for a segment on The Daily Show.

Here's one which really made me laugh... Flower Alley ABOVE Birdstone! Flower Alley won the Travers, Birdstone won the BELMONT STAKES AND THE TRAVERS!!!! Oh my!!!!

[ELA]

Originally Posted by miraja2

This is the kind of sentiment that I just don't understand. Do we really all have to be either worshipers or naysayers? I, for one, am not ready to call this horse one of the all-time greats.
But he is certainly very good, and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he does give us a "wow" performance in the Belmont.
At this point, there is simply no doubt that he is overrated. But that doesn't mean that he isn't CAPABLE of proving his most ardent supporters correct in the Belmont.

No, all don't have to be one or the other. My own opinion aside, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I enjoy reading all of them. However, be that as it may, I completely disagree with you on the "there is simply no doubt" -- although I'll agree with this part . . . that's your opinion. LOL.

My point is that I think regardless of what this horse does, I think he will always have critics -- and that's the interesting part. In part, it might be due to the horse himself, perhaps the weakness of the crop as one example. However, I think it's become far more about the trainer and the connections. That won't go away.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

And the goo-goos, even if Big Brown were to lose in the Belmont, would still maintain that he is one of the greats. He could lose by the length of the stretch and many would no doubt offer up one excuse or another.

Excellent point.

Eric

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

If you want my opinion, here it is: Your list stinks.

First off all, Lion Heart is a runner-up and that only in any Triple Crown race which, based upon the skewed logic you've presented, disqualifies him to a spot well below say more than a dozen 3-year-olds included and not included in your list. But because I'm off tomorrow, I'll play.

Street Sense is a Kentucky Derby winner, a Preakness runner-up, a Jim Dandy winner, a Travers runner-up and a runner-up against elders in the Kentucky Cup. How, in a million years that qualifies him for a lower spot than a horse like Lion Heart is flabbergasting.

Or how Afleet Alex, who won the Arkansas Derby, was a Derby runner-up, a Preakness winner and a Belmont winner is below Lion Heart is good for a segment on The Daily Show.

Here's one which really made me laugh... Flower Alley ABOVE Birdstone! Flower Alley won the Travers, Birdstone won the BELMONT STAKES AND THE TRAVERS!!!! Oh my!!!!

The last time I checked, Street Sense won the Travers.