Summer Bird could be HOY

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No one said he should care though a "sportsman" may have.

The point of horseracing especially for the ultra-rich is to see who's horse is best and to test your horses limits. Since handicap racing has been all but eliminated in this country, it would be nice to see owners/trainers try to test thier horses by doing different things. Surely Jackson has done that with RA but lets face it, he needs to race her at 1 1/4 next year or there will always be that knock against her. Speculating that she could get the distance and doing it are two different things. I think Freddy is nuts to think that she is in another league from Summer Bird, especially at 1 1/4 which is clearly a distance that he excells at. People get too hung up on the results of one race especially in a race where SB was clearly at a disadvantage (track plays to RA's favor not to mention he was cutting back off a 1 1/2 race to 1 1/8th which is tricky).

Anyone who says the sport wouldnt be better off with RA running in the BC has a strange outlook on better off.

Curlin would have trounced Summer Bird.. We haven't be blessed with a big race from Summer Bird on a fast track perhaps he just loves the slop.. I like Summer Bird but so far he is just a very nice sort.. They could run around Ky and Summer Bird isn't beating Rachel.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Why, because he was only a pretty good turf horse?

No because he was simply a pretty good horse period.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No one said he should care though a "sportsman" may have.

The point of horseracing especially for the ultra-rich is to see who's horse is best and to test your horses limits. Since handicap racing has been all but eliminated in this country, it would be nice to see owners/trainers try to test thier horses by doing different things. Surely Jackson has done that with RA but lets face it, he needs to race her at 1 1/4 next year or there will always be that knock against her. Speculating that she could get the distance and doing it are two different things. I think Freddy is nuts to think that she is in another league from Summer Bird, especially at 1 1/4 which is clearly a distance that he excells at. People get too hung up on the results of one race especially in a race where SB was clearly at a disadvantage (track plays to RA's favor not to mention he was cutting back off a 1 1/2 race to 1 1/8th which is tricky).

Anyone who says the sport wouldnt be better off with RA running in the BC has a strange outlook on better off.

I thought you said the way they keep score is with the purse money now its about seeing who is the best? Dinny Phipps must be pissed at Shug for not going in the 500k race huh. I imagine his scorecard needed the extra 200k lol

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Ok cant argue it is a horrible time to have a good horse but whatever the figure it is way more then they will make racing.

And they will make the same or more in a years time

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Curlin would have trounced Summer Bird.. We haven't be blessed with a big race from Summer Bird on a fast track perhaps he just loves the slop.. I like Summer Bird but so far he is just a very nice sort.. They could run around Ky and Summer Bird isn't beating Rachel.

Why would have Curlin trounced SB? At this point in their careers I would imagine they have to be pretty comparable. Macho Again almost beat RA. Enough said.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And they will make the same or more in a years time

BTW Gone Astray trumps market conditions because the breeding world needs a son of the great Dixie Union badly.. Claiborne has his paddock sodded with special grass..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I thought you said the way they keep score is with the purse money now its about seeing who is the best? Dinny Phipps must be pissed at Shug for not going in the 500k race huh. I imagine his scorecard needed the extra 200k lol

Well if money doesnt count then why are so many horses retired so early because of money?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

BTW Gone Astray trumps market conditions because the breeding world needs a son of the great Dixie Union badly.. Claiborne has his paddock sodded with special grass..

He will be running next year.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

They are in two completely different leagues. Who knows what happens next year but currently you have a very nice G1 colt vs. a REAL super horse (remember what Nerud told you or did you forget because we like Ice?). I am surprised that you think he would have any shot against her ever. Plus who is coming next year to sacifice a horse when they are running for 3rd money, Dry Martini or Awesome Gem?

Remember Ice is 35 years old..Nothing against him at all..But your bottom comments about Summer Bird are more relevant to Ice then Summer Bird.

Freddy,

You're talking about what has happened when the discussion is about what lies ahead.

And you're not giving any nuance to the appreciation for the difference between how bottom applies in a fitness race versus an endurance race.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why would have Curlin trounced SB? At this point in their careers I would imagine they have to be pretty comparable. Macho Again almost beat RA. Enough said.

Curlin, the 3 year old, was a terrific horse. Did you watch the Haskel did you see the great Summer bird with his new special high cruise speed and new early foot get buried? Did you see him gain a friggin inch on a surface he apparently thrives on.

Unfortunately you still dont comprehend that Rachel was flying the first 4 f's in the Woodward. The fact that she face 3 different runs at her while running every step with an awesome first half seems to escape you. How I have no clue. Macho ran a big race with a great set up he is certainly a Grade one talent and that day was he best effort of his life.

Curlin was at least 5 lengths faster the Summer Bird and had explosive speed. How you can compare the two is puzzling.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well if money doesnt count then why are so many horses retired so early because of money?

30 mil counts 250k doesn't.. BTW of course it counts only because it can be counted.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Freddy,

You're talking about what has happened when the discussion is about what lies ahead.

And you're not giving any nuance to the appreciation for the difference between how bottom applies in a fitness race versus an endurance race.

He have no clue how either will winter and come back.

You are really going to have to expand on bottom thoughts.. Because you would think if a horse can win the Belmont he would need to be fit..lol

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He will be running next year.

He will be running at 5 too..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Curlin, the 3 year old, was a terrific horse. Did you watch the Haskel did you see the great Summer bird with his new special high cruise speed and new early foot get buried? Did you see him gain a friggin inch on a surface he apparently thrives on.

Unfortunately you still dont comprehend that Rachel was flying the first 4 f's in the Woodward. The fact that she face 3 different runs at her while running every step with an awesome first half seems to escape you. How I have no clue. Macho ran a big race with a great set up he is certainly a Grade one talent and that day was he best effort of his life.

Curlin was at least 5 lengths faster the Summer Bird and had explosive speed. How you can compare the two is puzzling.

Um did you watch Curlins Haskell? What does RA's woodward have to do with SB and Curlin? Curlins Woodward was less than impressive over a bunch of goats last year. Curlin was just a very good horse that raced as a 4 yo against mostly weak older horses except for the BC.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

He will be running at 5 too..

He probably should be gelded

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Kasept

You're talking about what has happened when the discussion is about what lies ahead.

Given that Rachel is done for the year and Summer Bird has one race left, isn't a thread titled "Summer Bird could be HOY" necessarily predicated on what has happened, rather than what lies ahead...something along the lines of a 90/10 split in that direction, at least?

Next year will be dealt with next year, if they're both still at the top of their game, that will be next year's fun - and it will be awesome. But unless we're talking about how Summer Bird could be HOY in 2010, and I've missed it, Freddy seems to be on the right track for discussion.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

Rachel Alexandra is just simply a better horse than Summer Bird no matter the race, track condition, distance, what have you. Rachel ran against Summer Bird in the Haskell over ideal conditions for Summer Bird on his favorite track which is the slop, as well as in his new style. There is no possible case that could made that Summer Bird is a better horse than Rachel Alexandra.

I'm not convinced at at 10 or more furlongs, SB wouldn't handle RA. SB has developed alot this year. He is no longer a dead closer but a horse with a strong mid move that is game to the wire. He is unlike most US horses inthat he's better at 10f and 9. How exactly is Monmouth Summer Bird's "favorite track?" It's a track generally kinder to the leader at the top of the stretch than anyone making up ground.
I don't think that Ice would shrink at all from a 10f rematch with RA.
If SB beats all the horses RA beat this summer and several other major contenders in the BCC, esp if Sea The Stars shows up, then he has to be considered a contender for HOY.

[Cannon Shell]

The sad thing is that all we can do is speculate. Why do I have a feeling that JJ will spend more time next year mapping out plans than actually running?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Given that Rachel is done for the year and Summer Bird has one race left, isn't a thread titled "Summer Bird could be HOY" necessarily predicated on what has happened,

In the future I would love the next time JJ maps out a campaign for a horse, that he fits into his reasoning that the season doesn't end on the first week of September regardless of who the horse is and I am not evening talking about the BC necessarily especially when the vast majority of good horses have plans of running in November and beyond.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Given that Rachel is done for the year and Summer Bird has one race left, isn't a thread titled "Summer Bird could be HOY" necessarily predicated on what has happened, rather than what lies ahead...something along the lines of a 90/10 split in that direction, at least?

Next year will be dealt with next year, if they're both still at the top of their game, that will be next year's fun - and it will be awesome. But unless we're talking about how Summer Bird could be HOY in 2010, and I've missed it, Freddy seems to be on the right track for discussion.

I didn't realize every post in the thread was supposed to deal only with the title of the thread. There was a different subplot kind of being discussed I thought, but go on talking about whatever it is you feel is most germane.