unions killing jobs...

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

I don't think that assessing teacher performance is any more difficult than assessing the performance of other professions. The position that teacher performance is simply impossible to assess objectively doesn't hold up. If you have two classrooms in the same school, both teaching third grade math using the same textbooks and cirriculae, and one classroom of students scores consistently better on the same tests than the second classroom, you bet the first teacher should be considered objectively better.

But my point, going back to the original discussion, remains that I think that demonizing the vast majority of teachers in the US as incompetent and useless overpaid union thugs is absurd.

That meme is simply the current stated political ploy of the Republican party via ALEC and the RGA on the state level, since last year, in order to attempt to de-unionize school districts and thus privatize them.

People won't give up local control of their school districts unless they are convinced that the current situation is untenable. This is how the RGA, ALEC are trying to convince them.

The proof lives in example, Wisconsin is a good one: the unions agreed to every budget cut necessary, but the Republican governor still busted the union.

It's not about budgets and deficits. It's about union-busting as the first step.

They were done a favor, individual bargaining is a far better practice.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

They were done a favor, individual bargaining is a far better practice.

At least you admit it really is all about union-busting, and Gov. Walker was lying to his constituents.

Ah, big brother government - Republicans - telling individuals what is best for their own interests, and limiting their freedoms.

Some in the far right simply cannot see their hypocrisy.

You could raise a family with $45,000. This country was built by immigrants who had large families and lived in poverty.

Materialism is bullshit. Love is free.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

At least you admit it really is all about union-busting, and Gov. Walker was lying to his constituents.

Ah, big brother government - Republicans - telling individuals what is best for their own interests, and limiting their freedoms.

Some in the far right simply cannot see their hypocrisy.

Unions still exist. Not busted, just in a better spot now.

Big Brother government. All sides! Telling government and private sector employees what is best for everyone, especially the voting block that favors them.

I know and let it be know where I stand on any and all issues, just ask. There are no politicians I know of who share my views.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you think, in 2011, that $50-60K is a decent salary for a lifetime of raising a family of 4, when real wage value in this country has done nothing but fall precipitously over time, you don't have a good grip on what has happened in this country over the past 40 years.

.

so only one person is working in your definition of a family? with two incomes and one teacher being 50-60k the house hold income would be more like 90-120k

[Danzig]

since the median u.s. income is right at 45-46k, i'd have to think that plenty of families are being raised on that amount of money.
can you live in a mcmansion and drive a benz? probably not.
teachers have kids in front of them 178 days out of the year-which is less than half the year. the two week break at christmas is more vacation than most people get per year. that doesn't count spring break, t'giving, etc, etc.
i can think of worse jobs.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

so only one person is working in your definition of a family? with two incomes and one teacher being 50-60k the house hold income would be more like 90-120k

You make my point. Real middle class wages have completely stagnated in this country over the past 50-60 years. They have not risen, they have fallen.

In the 1950's-1960's, yes, the father worked, the mother stayed home and raised the kids.

In the 1960's-1970's, that changed, and the mother had to go to work to afford the same lifestyle.

In the 1970's-1980's, Americans put that lifestyle on a charge card, if they wanted it, with two incomes.

In the 1990's, Americans mortgaged their homes to maintain that 1950's middle class lifestyle.

2011- the economy crashed. There is hardly any middle class left. They have no more money or credit to spend. The wealth disparity in this country is the greatest it's ever been.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...ca-chart-graph

(A great page of data explaining this nation's current troubles)

A huge share of the nation's economic growth over the past 30 years has gone to the top one-hundredth of one percent, who now make an average of $27 million per household. The average income for the bottom 90 percent of us? $31,244.

Get that last sentence: the average income of the bottom 90% of Americans is $31,244.

That's ... not first world country income.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Danzig

since the median u.s. income is right at 45-46k, i'd have to think that plenty of families are being raised on that amount of money.
can you live in a mcmansion and drive a benz? probably not.
teachers have kids in front of them 178 days out of the year-which is less than half the year. the two week break at christmas is more vacation than most people get per year. that doesn't count spring break, t'giving, etc, etc.
i can think of worse jobs.

In defense of teachers.. handling 30-35 kids is a pretty tough deal. Not all of the teachers are models of comportment(picture your favourite teacher) My daughter in law was teacher of the year in her school district and shes burned out after just 15 yrs...retirement is a long ways away.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

In defense of teachers.. handling 30-35 kids is a pretty tough deal. Not all of the teachers are models of comportment(picture your favourite teacher) My daughter in law was teacher of the year in her school district and shes burned out after just 15 yrs...retirement is a long ways away.

No teacher should be expected to deal with 30-35, even with an aid. It's pretty clear that 26-28 works far better, at max. It's sad she's burned out and an excellent teacher lost.

That's the whole point - teaching is one of the most important professions, and they are currently thoroughly demonized here is the good old United States.

It's pathetic what this country has become.

[Danzig]

hey, i worked in the schools for five years. i love history, and have been told a million times i would be a great teacher-no thanks. i know how it is there. but, cops and firemen don't get rich doing what they do, and neither do teachers. is it right? probably not. could it be worse? sure. are teachers and their kids on food stamps? i doubt it.

i don't think teachers get demonized..but when people start saying that 45k isn't enough...yeah, that's not going to evoke a lot of sympathy right now.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't think teachers get demonized..but when people start saying that 45k isn't enough...yeah, that's not going to evoke a lot of sympathy right now.

Yeah, I say $45K isn't enough for teachers. I think teachers are so important, and so be revered in this society, that the job should start at $60-$75K and go up to $120K or so. Then teaching would attract the best and brightest, like medical schools.

Not suffer from having their best people who "burn out" after 15 years.

And yes, calling 80% of teachers in this country incompetent freeloaders is indeed demonizing them. I spent most of my life hearing how teachers are never paid enough, how they are unsung heroes in this country, how they are not paid in line for the important and essential job they do. Now the societal meme (pushed by the GOP) is that they suck and it's evil teachers and their unions' fault we have no money.

Screw the GOP and their attempt to steal the last pennies from this country.

Originally Posted by Riot

You make my point. Real middle class wages have completely stagnated in this country over the past 50-60 years. They have not risen, they have fallen.

In the 1950's-1960's, yes, the father worked, the mother stayed home and raised the kids.

In the 1960's-1970's, that changed, and the mother had to go to work to afford the same lifestyle.

In the 1970's-1980's, Americans put that lifestyle on a charge card, if they wanted it, with two incomes.

In the 1990's, Americans mortgaged their homes to maintain that 1950's middle class lifestyle.

2011- the economy crashed. There is hardly any middle class left. They have no more money or credit to spend. The wealth disparity in this country is the greatest it's ever been.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...ca-chart-graph

(A great page of data explaining this nation's current troubles)


Get that last sentence: the average income of the bottom 90% of Americans is $31,244.

That's ... not first world country income.

Where are the income charts for 2010? KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKKEKEKKEEKEKEKKEKKKE

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, I say $45K isn't enough for teachers. I think teachers are so important, and so be revered in this society, that the job should start at $60-$75K and go up to $120K or so. Then teaching would attract the best and brightest, like medical schools.

Not suffer from having their best people who "burn out" after 15 years.

yeah, we can pay everyone what they think they deserve. in fantasyland.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

yeah, we can pay everyone what they think they deserve. in fantasyland.

Countries - societies - value some things, and abhor others. The United States has indeed become unique among first world countries in what we do not value in this society, compared to other first world countries.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Countries - societies - value some things, and abhor others. The United States has indeed become unique among first world countries in what we do not value in this society, compared to other first world countries.

So...in what current society does a teacher make more than 45k...not counting tenure?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

So...in what current society does a teacher make more than 45k...not counting tenure?

Let's compare teacher salaries after 15 years experience, compared to GDP, okay? Who pays experienced teachers more than the United States, adjusted to GDP? (which means their salary is comparatively higher in their country compared to this country)

Korea
Germany
Portugal
Japan
Scotland
New Zealand
Switzerland
Mexico
Spain
England
Czech Republic
Turkey
Slovenia
Ireland
Belgium (FI)
Australia
Greece
Netherlands
Belgium (Fr)
Denmark
Chile
Finland
Austria
Italy
France
United States

Who pays more than the United States, in straight unadjusted teachers salary after 15 years experience?

Luxemburg
Korea
Switzerland
Germany
Ireland
Japan
Scotland
England
Netherlands
Australia
United States

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...und-the-world/

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Let's compare teacher salaries after 15 years experience, compared to GDP, okay? Who pays experienced teachers more than the United States, adjusted to GDP? (which means their salary is comparatively higher in their country compared to this country)

Korea
Germany
Portugal
Japan
Scotland
New Zealand
Switzerland
Mexico
Spain
England
Czech Republic
Turkey
Slovenia
Ireland
Belgium (FI)
Australia
Greece
Netherlands
Belgium (Fr)
Denmark
Chile
Finland
Austria
Italy
France
United States

Who pays more than the United States, in straight unadjusted teachers salary after 15 years experience?

Luxemburg
Korea
Switzerland
Germany
Ireland
Japan
Scotland
England
Netherlands
Australia
United States

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...und-the-world/

Well....its obvious we're getting our moneys worth then....considering how well our kids stack up against other countries students! Who goofed I've got to know!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Well....its obvious we're getting our moneys worth then....considering how well our kids stack up against other countries students! Who goofed I've got to know!

That is about where we are comparing our students to those countries. Our kids stack up very poorly to the kids in those countries.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, I say $45K isn't enough for teachers. I think teachers are so important, and so be revered in this society, that the job should start at $60-$75K and go up to $120K or so. Then teaching would attract the best and brightest, like medical schools.

Not suffer from having their best people who "burn out" after 15 years.

And yes, calling 80% of teachers in this country incompetent freeloaders is indeed demonizing them. I spent most of my life hearing how teachers are never paid enough, how they are unsung heroes in this country, how they are not paid in line for the important and essential job they do. Now the societal meme (pushed by the GOP) is that they suck and it's evil teachers and their unions' fault we have no money.

Screw the GOP and their attempt to steal the last pennies from this country.

45k is entry level. higher than entry level at a lot of jobs

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, I say $45K isn't enough for teachers. I think teachers are so important, and so be revered in this society, that the job should start at $60-$75K and go up to $120K or so. Then teaching would attract the best and brightest, like medical schools.

Not suffer from having their best people who "burn out" after 15 years.

And yes, calling 80% of teachers in this country incompetent freeloaders is indeed demonizing them. I spent most of my life hearing how teachers are never paid enough, how they are unsung heroes in this country, how they are not paid in line for the important and essential job they do. Now the societal meme (pushed by the GOP) is that they suck and it's evil teachers and their unions' fault we have no money.

Screw the GOP and their attempt to steal the last pennies from this country.

Teachers unions DO SUCK because they push their own socialist agenda and hold sway with the politicians that do their bidding.

Just so you know...a teacher has a lesson plan that she mustn't deviate from....she has to toe the line in what she brings to the students personally. It is no wonder that the best teachers leave for different careers, even giving up the lucrative pensions they've earned.