Nobiz Like Showbiz

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Well, maybe I am off-base, but considering the number of West Point horses you have told me about, it seemed to me that you were involved with them. I apologize for my confusion. Their association with Empire is hardly a secret.

Sorry, but not only are horseplayers overly paranoid ( myself included at times ), but the cries of people at OTB are hardly reliable. If I wrote a book of the comments I have heard in those establishments over the years it would rival the funniest tomes ever written. The simple fact is that Corinthian has a long history of being a bad actor, most horses' gate mishaps are NOT caused by the gate crew, and NYRA has an established record of paying careful attention to situations like this, always having an inquiry into start mishaps, and more than rarely declaring horses non starters and refunding millions of dollars in wagers at Saratoga alone. They had an inquiry today, looked at the film, undoubtably talked to those involved, and made what appears to be the correct decision. Their track record in this category speaks for itself.

I have bet a lot of horses that had disasterous starts. It's frustrating....but it is not necessarily the fault of the gate crew. And, I think I can back this up, NOBODY has been more publically critical of the NYRA gate crew than I have been.

I understand why you would think i was involved with West Point. Take me at my word I play the horses, but, I don't follow the off the track news about NY's future very much. I do know there are a bunch of different groups bidding to run NY, I see the headlines in the NY post all the time, but , I never read the stories thoroughly, i skim them

Sorry for the confusion - as I PM'd Steve, i was making a reaction to golfer's post and what had happend at the OTB right after the race. Perhaps my comments were strong, but there were a lot of disappointed (paranoid OTB'ers) who saw it the other way

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Well, maybe I am off-base, but considering the number of West Point horses you have told me about, it seemed to me that you were involved with them. I apologize for my confusion. Their association with Empire is hardly a secret.

Sorry, but not only are horseplayers overly paranoid ( myself included at times ), but the cries of people at OTB are hardly reliable. If I wrote a book of the comments I have heard in those establishments over the years it would rival the funniest tomes ever written. The simple fact is that Corinthian has a long history of being a bad actor, most horses' gate mishaps are NOT caused by the gate crew, and NYRA has an established record of paying careful attention to situations like this, always having an inquiry into start mishaps, and more than rarely declaring horses non starters and refunding millions of dollars in wagers at Saratoga alone. They had an inquiry today, looked at the film, undoubtably talked to those involved, and made what appears to be the correct decision. Their track record in this category speaks for itself.

I have bet a lot of horses that had disasterous starts. It's frustrating....but it is not necessarily the fault of the gate crew. And, I think I can back this up, NOBODY has been more publically critical of the NYRA gate crew than I have been.

THEY WANT ME TO HAVE THE SIX FIVE EIGHT! THEY WANT ME TO HAVE THE SIX FIVE EIGHT!

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by gales0678

I understand why you would think i was involved with West Point. Take me at my word I play the horses, but, I don't follow the off the track news about NY's future very much. I do know there are a bunch of different groups bidding to run NY, I see the headlines in the NY post all the time, but , I never read the stories thoroughly, i skim them

Sorry for the confusion - as I PM'd Steve, i was making a reaction to golfer's post and what had happend at the OTB right after the race. Perhaps my comments were strong, but there were a lot of disappointed (paranoid OTB'ers) who saw it the other way

No problem, just a disagreement, and I'm happy to discuss it. We disagree....that's cool. And I apologize about my confusion concerning you and West Point.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I would love to bet you a serious amount of money that if both horses go Any Given Saturday finishes ahead of Tiago in the Derby.....and I am guessing I'm far from the only one.

Wow! Can we say "straw man" argument?

WHen Pt. Given made that comment about AGS skipping the derby, at first I thought "No, no." But after thinking about it (a whole 5 minutes) it isnt the craziest idea by any stretch. Much as I like AGS he just seems destined come up short. He'd be a great bet to hit the board in the derby, but I dont see him winning it. Sure he's better than probably 12 or 13 other horses in the derby, but would he be able to beat whoever is left running in the stretch on derby day?


Think back to his stretch battles vs. Tiz Wonderful and SS were great but isnt he, just the tinsiest bit hesistant when he eyeballs the other horse...?


I'll leave it at that. YOu guys have far more experience than, me in this.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by easy goer

Wow! Can we say "straw man" argument?

WHen Pt. Given made that comment about AGS skipping the derby, at first I thought "No, no." But after thinking about it (a whole 5 minutes) it isnt the craziest idea by any stretch. Much as I like AGS he just seems destined come up short. He'd be a great bet to hit the board in the derby, but I dont see him winning it. Sure he's better than probably 12 or 13 other horses in the derby, but would he be able to beat whoever is left running in the stretch on derby day?


Think back to his stretch battles vs. Tiz Wonderful and SS were great but isnt he, just the tinsiest bit hesistant when he eyeballs the other horse...?

I'll leave it at that. YOu guys have far more experience than, me in this.

Yes, but the point is... he was involved in those stretch battles. He's THERE. A horse like Tiago will typically be there to run past the tiring horses (like Giacomo.) Just my take on it.

[Merlinsky]

When the race first started my reaction was 'crap, he's being rank.' Tagg seemed happy with the ride and said as much but Bailey was critical of Cornelio for more than one trip on the horse. Does anybody agree with that assessment or is the horse just harder than Bailey's giving credit? I thought Tagg felt he was easier to train than Funny Cide but does that correlate into an easier horse to rate for the jockey necessarily? I figured you can't just say it was the blinkers if Cornelio's had problems in the past but I didn't register them so was Jerry seeing phantoms bad-rides?

Honestly I can't ever quite get away from this horse just because I'm sentimentally happy for Albert the Great and he's one of those that can really use it and isn't expected to've gotten one like this. There are a few sires this year I'm happy for in terms of getting a big runner. I loved Barbaro by himself early last spring but right after his Derby win and I said "yay Barbaro!" my next impulse was 'yay Dynaformer!" It doesn't rule my picks but it adds to the enjoyment of them.

About Corinthian really quick, the action sounds like he's the typical headcase I've heard him to be but maybe it's more of an involuntary reaction on the assistant starter's part. Think about it, you're trying to keep a horse from spazzing and not let him go up but if he does it at the moment the doors open you're trying to turn him loose partly but some muscle memory says 'he's screwing around, hold' and you have to consciously let go...all this happens of course within a split second and not like you have time to think that whole thing in your head but I just mean it's instinctive to not let a rearing horse just bug out. Hypothesizing, sorry.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

When the race first started my reaction was 'crap, he's being rank.' Tagg seemed happy with the ride and said as much but Bailey was critical of Cornelio for more than one trip on the horse. Does anybody agree with that assessment or is the horse just harder than Bailey's giving credit? I thought Tagg felt he was easier to train than Funny Cide but does that correlate into an easier horse to rate for the jockey necessarily?

Honestly I can't ever quite get away from this horse just because I'm sentimentally happy for Albert the Great. There are a few sires this year I'm happy for in terms of getting a big runner. I loved Barbaro by himself early last spring but right after his Derby win and I said "yay Barbaro!" my next impulse was 'yay Dynaformer!" It doesn't rule my picks but it adds to the enjoyment of them.

About Corinthian really quick, the action sounds like he's the typical headcase I've heard him to be but maybe it's more of an involuntary reaction on the assistant starter's part. Think about it, you're trying to keep a horse from spazzing and not let him go up but if he does it at the moment the doors open you're trying to turn him loose partly but some muscle memory says 'he's screwing around, hold' and you have to consciously let go...all this happens of course within a split second and not like you have time to think that whole thing in your head but I just mean it's instinctive to not let a rearing horse just bug out. Hypothesizing, sorry.

I thought the same thing. I just find it hard to believe that this colt is going to win the derby... while he looked more professional in the stretch, derby day is a whole 'nother ball game.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Yes, but the point is... he was involved in those stretch battles. He's THERE. A horse like Tiago will typically be there to run past the tiring horses (like Giacomo.) Just my take on it.

Yeah I know. He's (AGS) game for sure, and yesterday doesnt really change that. But it's not insane to say that he might be better by skipping.

As for Tiago yeah, AGS far more likelier to hit the board. Just because AGS gets a better result doesnt mean passing the race is a bad idea.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

When the race first started my reaction was 'crap, he's being rank.' Tagg seemed happy with the ride and said as much but Bailey was critical of Cornelio for more than one trip on the horse. Does anybody agree with that assessment or is the horse just harder than Bailey's giving credit? I thought Tagg felt he was easier to train than Funny Cide but does that correlate into an easier horse to rate for the jockey necessarily? I figured you can't just say it was the blinkers if Cornelio's had problems in the past but I didn't register them so was Jerry seeing phantoms bad-rides?

As usual I think Bailey had it right. To me he wasn't so much saying that Corny doing something wrong, after all he won the race. I thought he was just pointing out that that same performance in the derby will not cut it and I agree. Like Bailey said, Corny has to find a way to get the horse to relax in the Derby, a tall order I think. If on derby day he has to strongly restrain him
for a mile, what do you think he will have left in the stretch?

I also am drawn to the horse, having liked his sire. He is such a nice looking colt and talented from the getgo. Problem is he has run at that same level six times now.

[outofthebox]

I thought the horse was a little headstrong, but not rank at all. At least Corn wasnt bouncing in the saddle or making the horse toss his head. He kept one hold of him and even got him to relax down the bs and dropped about 3/4 lengths back without giving up his spot on the rail. I credit his ride. Lets face it, weve seen other jocks take to much hold, then lose their position and it eventulally costs them the race. My overall opinion of this horse is that he hasnt improved one bit since his two year old year. He is game, he fights and shows up everytime, i give him credit for that. But im looking for just a little more from him, and so far havent seen it..

[Grits]

Originally Posted by gales0678

You're not nuts, this impacted the whole race and sent a lot of tickests up in flames, how can the NYRA allow this to happen on one of the biggest days of the year , pity the public to think the game is fair in NY

On the accusation of Corinthinian being held by the starter.

A friend of mine owns a horse that ran in this race. A photographer took three photos as quickly as the shutter on her camera could click on Saturday. She was located behind the rail, a few feet out from the starting gate with her lens trained on every horse.

Late last night, I looked at the three photos, in subsequent order. Corinthian was almost sitting on his hind when the gate sprung, he gathers his hind legs with his front legs higher in the second shot, and in the third shot he visibly leaps forward leaving the gate behind all other starters.

I have no idea how the jock remained on him. And in all three photos, BOTH OF THE STARTERS HANDS are in view, above and away from the horse.

To put this to rest for yourself, and OTB patron's who where accusing unfairness, and therefore flaming all of their tickets.

THIS did not happen as claimed.

If the photos were my own I would post them here, but they are not.

I hope this will help some to see that there was no wrongdoing on NYRA's part.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Grits

On the accusation of Corinthinian being held by the starter.

A friend of mine owns a horse that ran in this race. A photographer took three photos as quickly as the shutter on her camera could click on Saturday. She was located behind the rail, a few feet out from the starting gate with her lens trained on every horse.

Late last night, I looked at the three photos, in subsequent order. Corinthian was almost sitting on his hind when the gate sprung, he gathers his hind legs with his front legs higher in the second shot, and in the third shot he visibly leaps forward leaving the gate behind all other starters.

I have no idea how the jock remained on him. And in all three photos, BOTH OF THE STARTERS HANDS are in view, above and away from the horse.

To put this to rest for yourself, and OTB patron's who where accusing unfairness, and therefore flaming all of their tickets.

THIS did not happen as claimed.

If the photos were my own I would post them here, but they are not.

I hope this will help some to see that there was no wrongdoing on NYRA's part.

Agree, I was standing at the gate, the horse is a goof and he reared when it opened. Sh!t happens. About the only thing NYRA did wrong was not show the results of the inquiry again once it was deemed no action (i.e., show the head on with a spot shadow).

[byalip]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

I thought the horse was a little headstrong, but not rank at all. At least Corn wasnt bouncing in the saddle or making the horse toss his head. He kept one hold of him and even got him to relax down the bs and dropped about 3/4 lengths back without giving up his spot on the rail. I credit his ride. Lets face it, weve seen other jocks take to much hold, then lose their position and it eventulally costs them the race. My overall opinion of this horse is that he hasnt improved one bit since his two year old year. He is game, he fights and shows up everytime, i give him credit for that. But im looking for just a little more from him, and so far havent seen it..

The discussion brings back memories of War Emblem and his headstrong troubles. When he didn't get his own way he quit. It looked lik Biz deferred to CV when he wrangled him off the lead on the backstretch. Tagg's got his work set out to develop Biz into a presser....maybe it'll work out.

[Holland Hacker]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I know, I know........totally different circumstances but for what it's worth, Nobiz didn't even run as fast a final time as he did when winning the Remsen last year. I will be interested in what the figures are for today. He was given a 97 Beyer for the Remsen. His career figures have been 96-92-97-98-94 and then today's race. He's a consistent horse but certainly not a brilliant one and from my perspective and seemingly from Beyer's, he hasn't progressed one bit. He's just consistently good but not anything more than that.

According to the DRF site Nobiz ran a 99 in the Wood on Sunday. At least it is his Lifetime Best Beyer.

The horse I like after watching the Wood is Sightseeing. In each of his last two races his BSF increased by +/- 10 points. IF he can do that again in the Derby he could be the Winner.

Maybe I'm ignorant but with respect to Magna Graduate running a faster time than Nobiz aren't older horses supposed to be faster than younger ones?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Holland Hacker

According to the DRF site Nobiz ran a 99 in the Wood on Sunday. At least it is his Lifetime Best Beyer.

The horse I like after watching the Wood is Sightseeing. In each of his last two races his BSF increased by +/- 10 points. IF he can do that again in the Derby he could be the Winner.

Maybe I'm ignorant but with respect to Magna Graduate running a faster time than Nobiz aren't older horses supposed to be faster than younger ones?

Older horses are absolutely supposed to be faster, but 1.5 seconds is kind of a lot. The fact of the matter is the Wood come-home was not all that great. Magna Graduate on the other hand ran an incredible race and his 111 Beyer backs that up.

NT

[johnny pinwheel]

maybe, but i wouldn't hold my breath.i liked nobiz saturday, wouldn't bet him at 3-5 to win but the exacta was nice. i wouldn't bet any horse (AGS) that hides out in tampa. street sense is different because he used tampa as a race to come back in. after seeing how chilokee ran in the florida derby ,sightseeing was an absolute ridiculous overlay. the fact that nobiz ran headstrong saturday tells me hes in big trouble going 1 1/4, 4 weeks from now unless he can relax. especially if theres the usual bunch of horses that have no shot and go 46 or under to the half, if nobiz gets sucked into that well ,rip up those chalky tickets. its one reason i'm glad he won saturday because the week before the derby he'll be the best thing since sliced bread. the other thing is aqueduct seems to be his favorite place, can he carry his form to another surface? i havn't seen it yet. favorites and the derby, well its not a good prospect.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I am guessing Javiar knows better than you or I.

I am framing this for posterity purposes

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

after seeing how chilokee ran in the florida derby ,sightseeing was an absolute ridiculous overlay.....

Yes. Actually his last two races, he broke from the 9 hole and 11 hole at GP. THose posts are bad and he lost two races by less than 2 len. To Chelokee and Delightful Kiss both pretty good horses. In the Chelokee race I think he was ahead in mid stretch and then got caught near the wire after running wide most of the way.

So, it's not like the horse is suddenly putting it all together, looking at his ground loss in the last two it looks like sat. result is a good reflection of how good he is.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kimmeastar

If they were going a mile and a quarter today,Sightseeing would have beat him.

They could have gone around again and sightseeing would still be hanging there.

If that was the case I dont think Shug would be skipping the derby.

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

They could have gone around again and sightseeing would still be hanging there.

If that was the case I dont think Shug would be skipping the derby.

I think you need to read YOUR disclaimer again.