Librarians, Keepers of the Liberty

[Downthestretch55]

PLEASE calm down everyone!
I never intended for this thread to become a shouting match nor an opportunity for vulgar name calling.
It seems that many people have very strong views.
That's just fine with me.
Let's attempt to be respectful (polite) with others, even if their views differ from our own.
Thank you,
DTS

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Now its gonna get interesting. This could lead down a path where the answers will vary widely. We might get down to the Why. And this will illustrate some very different views.

There were no applicants of other ethnic groups for Science positions. None. Zero. In fact, sitting in on interviews with applicants for science positions for about 12 years now, the vast majority of these applicants are clearly white and male. Females on the rise however.
I have seen zero black applicants. I have never been on a faculty with a black science teacher. The approximate racial breadown of the students in these schools would be 40% Hispanic, 40% White, 20% Black. The school I teach at presently (a burb school) would go about 55% White, 35% Hispanic, 10% Black. The Schools I have taught at average about 3000 students. The current school well over 3000 students.

Interesting pattern. In fact in all my upper division and graduate level science courses (these were small classes at a very large institution, University of Texas) there were zero black students... I get the Newsletter from the school of Natural Sciences at UT. They give you an update on the diff. graduate students and professors and what they are researching. Zero black students. Zero black professors. More females than my day. My GUESS is there are no black applicants for faculity or graduate students.

Why the obvious discrepancy in numbers? Black people hate science?

Previously you said that if you were black you would not have been given the offers that came your way during your life. How do you know that? Based on what you just said above there were no applicants for the science positions from ethnic groups so it couldn't have been racial favoritism that won you the position versus the other non-ethnic applicants.

To me the question is why were there no ethnic candidates. Same with the president or corporate america examples you gave. Where are the candidates?
I think the answers are complex and are not simply answered by claiming that we have a society that is biased towards white males.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Just wonderin. Haven't bothered with this thread much, but are you the Arab on here?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW, you can add ME to your list. I'm slightly to the right of Attilla the HUN, and a lot more hawkish than Ghengis Khan.

As for the Palestinians, Patton's advice in 1945 was perfect for the current problem in Gaza and The Territories. "Fire Bomb" them into the Stone Age (collateral damage has never been a problem in war) send them over a couple of Texas Longhorns and let them start all over like US.

Unless you are planing to meet me, I suggest you refrain from using the word "coward" in your reply.

Ahhhh, the hatred.

So many crosses to burn, so very little time.

How do you manage it all?

Take off the hood and walk toward the light.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Just wonderin. Haven't bothered with this thread much, but are you the Arab on here?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW, you can add ME to your list. I'm slightly to the right of Attilla the HUN, and a lot more hawkish than Ghengis Khan.

As for the Palestinians, Patton's advice in 1945 was perfect for the current problem in Gaza and The Territories. "Fire Bomb" them into the Stone Age (collateral damage has never been a problem in war) send them over a couple of Texas Longhorns and let them start all over like US.

Unless you are planing to meet me, I suggest you refrain from using the word "coward" in your reply.

You are not going to win over any hearts or minds if all you can offer is this kind of BS. Very nice post if your only intention is to incite and inflame. If you are at all serious about what you wrote I feel sorry for you.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Previously you said that if you were black you would not have been given the offers that came your way during your life. How do you know that? Based on what you just said above there were no applicants for the science positions from ethnic groups so it couldn't have been racial favoritism that won you the position versus the other non-ethnic applicants.

To me the question is why were there no ethnic candidates. Same with the president or corporate america examples you gave. Where are the candidates?
I think the answers are complex and are not simply answered by claiming that we have a society that is biased towards white males.

Ok here we go. Where are the candidates? Where are the young up and comers from other ethnic groups, especially blacks in the cases I have mentioned? I dont think it is going very deep into a question as you have stated.
And I keep with my initial claim. It gets very interesting now. If I stick to what I am saying, something is happening at an earlier age than you are looking at. What is it? And I am not trying to be Socrates, what is it?

In fact I would ask everyone on the board if a person of color has an equal chance of being successful, all other things being equal, in their personal areas of employment. Kev, the golf pro. I cannot see a black female golf pro rubbing it up with all the fellas after a few rounds. Oracle, still the same accessebility to owners (from the get go, without already establishing onself) and trainers? I have already stated there is a dearth of black science teachers in my realm. All you guys in the horse business... if you where black and female, equal opportunity from the get go? None of this if you work hard and establish your credibility... from the beginning... getting in the door.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

I am DEAD SERIOUS, and don't bother feeling sorry for me, I'm doin just fine.

"Hearts and Minds" are for Jane Fonda.

It is possible to be hawkish without being hateful. You, lamentably, skipped that chapter of life's lessons as well as the chapter which teaches the value of understanding others' point of view having value.

Have a pleasant, albeit hateful, life. Hopefully your daughter never brings home anyone whose heritage you disapprove. You would not want to risk opening your mind to the rest of the world.

[irishtrekker]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ok here we go. Where are the candidates? Where are the young up and comers from other ethnic groups, especially blacks in the cases I have mentioned? I dont think it is going very deep into a question as you have stated.
And I keep with my initial claim. It gets very interesting now. If I stick to what I am saying, something is happening at an earlier age than you are looking at. What is it? And I am not trying to be Socrates, what is it?

In fact I would ask everyone on the board if a person of color has an equal chance of being successful, all other things being equal, in their personal areas of employment. Kev, the golf pro. I cannot see a black female golf pro rubbing it up with all the fellas after a few rounds. Oracle, still the same accessebility to owners (from the get go, without already establishing onself) and trainers? I have already stated there is a dearth of black science teachers in my realm. All you guys in the horse business... if you where black and female, equal opportunity from the get go? None of this if you work hard and establish your credibility... from the beginning... getting in the door.

Pgarden, I understand what you're saying about academics and would be really interested in continuing the discussion with you, but maybe in another thread or via email? This one's getting a little nasty for me. My husband spent awhile studying these issues and working with disadvantaged youth to try opening up access to higher institutions, and I have some experience and thoughts myself on the matter. Anyway, if you're interested, let me know. Not sure I can provide any huge insight, but it's something that troubles me a lot, precisely because the roots are so embedded in so many socioeconomic factors that solutions seem difficult to parse.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

I am DEAD SERIOUS, and don't bother feeling sorry for me, I'm doin just fine.

"Hearts and Minds" are for Jane Fonda.

If you can't convince people of your position, if you can't win their hearts and minds, what is your solution, kill them or bomb them to the stone age? You just end up with a lot of hatred and dead people. There was an almost bloodless revolution that swept through eastern europe in the late eighties/early nineties. It didn't happen because of the massive firepower or terrorist tactics employed by the people of those countries. It happened finally because of the idea of freedom and the courage of people to stand up to the corrupt regimes.

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

Pgarden, I understand what you're saying about academics and would be really interested in continuing the discussion with you, but maybe in another thread or via email? This one's getting a little nasty for me. My husband spent awhile studying these issues and working with disadvantaged youth to try opening up access to higher institutions, and I have some experience and thoughts myself on the matter. Anyway, if you're interested, let me know. Not sure I can provide any huge insight, but it's something that troubles me a lot, precisely because the roots are so embedded in so many socioeconomic factors that solutions seem difficult to parse.

Your last sentence is almost exactly where I am. I see a very vicious cycle that is firmly imbeddedd occuring. But very unsure how to solve it. It seems to me to start in the home situation... And then just gets passed on.

Oh, and I just skip the other stuff if it gets out of hand. It is rather interesting that some people can hate so deeply though. I guess we all could if we were personally really screwed over.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgardn

It seems to me to start in the home situation... And then just gets passed on.

This is also what I come back to. At the core I think these problems trace back to the home. I think basically that in general we have slipped when it comes to holding high standards for our kids. We have taken the easy way on so many things. I feel once this process starts, of lower expectations and standards for yourself and your kids, it just cascades across society in many different ways and now we are paying the price.

Wow!

I go away for a few hours ... and WWIV breaks out.

Hey ... pgardn ... can you go back to my 10:41am post and reply to it? I was having all kinds of fun before this food fight broke out.

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

I am DEAD SERIOUS, and don't bother feeling sorry for me, I'm doin just fine.

"Hearts and Minds" are for Jane Fonda.

Hey, Dixie ... thanks for once again demonstrating that a certain other poster can hurl personal attacks and curses ... but can't take them ... as if we didn't already know that.

And he has the ignorance to call Dr. Thomas Sowell ... one of the world's most brilliant scholars ... a moron. I'm sure he has no idea who the man is ... but just hurls curses and attacks at anyone. Typical of his ilk.

I know how exceptionally accomplished your daughter is ... congratulations on raising such a beautiful, bright, and gracious young lady.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

we need to send in the cleaners on this leader ..hes really lost it..public ex and starvation..he needs to pick a winner ..democracy in the 06th...million man army. and cant feed its people/..dumb ass..

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hey, Dixie ... thanks for once again demonstrating that a certain other poster can hurl personal attacks and curses ... but can't take them ... as if we didn't already know that.

And he has the ignorance to call Dr. Thomas Sowell ... one of the world's most brilliant scholars ... a moron. I'm sure he has no idea who the man is ... but just hurls curses and attacks at anyone. Typical of his ilk.

I know how exceptionally accomplished your daughter is ... congratulations on raising such a beautiful, bright, and gracious young lady.

No, wrong again. Sowell? lol. Townhall. LMAO... another esteemed columnist there is the renowned scholar cum film critic Michael Medved,not to mention the always balanced Bill Bennett (drunk gambler lost a couple mil playing slots... was John Daly out of town?). Say what you want, you never answered a couple questions I asked. Cowardly? hmmmm maybe, no, probably.

Your friendly other poster just hates for the sake of hating. You label others who disagree with you as haters of the Jewish people. Lame, weak, cowardly, stupid. The last thing people like you want is for conflict to resolve. Cede land (actually give it back, some would say)? No way. Single state? Oh, hell no, then they could vote. No, people like you want and need conflict so you can have the issue. Without it, what would you do? Learn to think on your own without consulting your beloved Sowell? No, you need the issue. After all, it's all you really have. And it's far easier for you than having to think for yourself.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ok here we go. Where are the candidates? Where are the young up and comers from other ethnic groups, especially blacks in the cases I have mentioned? I dont think it is going very deep into a question as you have stated.
And I keep with my initial claim. It gets very interesting now. If I stick to what I am saying, something is happening at an earlier age than you are looking at. What is it? And I am not trying to be Socrates, what is it?

In fact I would ask everyone on the board if a person of color has an equal chance of being successful, all other things being equal, in their personal areas of employment. Kev, the golf pro. I cannot see a black female golf pro rubbing it up with all the fellas after a few rounds. Oracle, still the same accessebility to owners (from the get go, without already establishing onself) and trainers? I have already stated there is a dearth of black science teachers in my realm. All you guys in the horse business... if you where black and female, equal opportunity from the get go? None of this if you work hard and establish your credibility... from the beginning... getting in the door.

Patrick you are completely off base although I know you probably don't mean to be. The thought that I ever had accessibility to anything is a joke. I don't come from a silver spoon upbringing, very far from it. As a kid I used to help out a paperboy in the neighborhood and do his route when he went on vacation. AFter I turned 12 and was old enough to get my own route, I did. Then I had a morning paper route to go with the one after school. Mowed lawns, raked leaves, shoveled snow(back before everyone owned a snow blower they would pay a kid like me 1 or 2 dollars to shovel their snow). Got a job(as a telemarketer, sucked) the day I turned 16 and could do that. Had a partial scholarship at college and hustled the rest. Drove wrecks of cars that sometimes were held together with duct tape around a broken electrical line. Nothing was handed to me, ever. I had "acess" because I met a guy who had heard I could really cap the ponies and needed a pik-6 connection in NY because he was a maverick that loved to play carryovers and back when I met him there wasnt account betting or simulcasting everywhere. You had to have a guy in that state that could the bet down and NY was a good carryover place. He'd wire me the money to make the bet on a carryover and we would talk over what we were playing and I would get 5%. Later on he became an eclipse winning owner and I got to meet trainers and players from being with him all the time. So you can't even say I caught a break there, I performed hard for the guy with hard work, thats the only reason I got there in the first place. Even after that it was a struggle for a long time. Business is ripe with old money and inherited money guys who frown upon people who didnt have their shrimp peeled for them when they were kids.
I really fail to see how a minority could have had it any tougher than I did, other than I didn't get called racial epithets but heck being from the sticks where I was bussed into school with many rich kids I was called things just as bad. You are off base heer Patrick and I think your generalization on teh whole matter regarding opportunity stinks.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

No, wrong again. Sowell? lol. Townhall. LMAO... another esteemed columnist there is the renowned scholar cum film critic Michael Medved,not to mention the always balanced Bill Bennett (drunk gambler lost a couple mil playing slots... was John Daly out of town?). Say what you want, you never answered a couple questions I asked. Cowardly? hmmmm maybe, no, probably.

Your friendly other poster just hates for the sake of hating. You label others who disagree with you as haters of the Jewish people. Lame, weak, cowardly, stupid. The last thing people like you want is for conflict to resolve. Cede land (actually give it back, some would say)? No way. Single state? Oh, hell no, then they could vote. No, people like you want and need conflict so you can have the issue. Without it, what would you do? Learn to think on your own without consulting your beloved Sowell? No, you need the issue. After all, it's all you really have. And it's far easier for you than having to think for yourself.

More personal attacks and spewing of hatred ... not only against me ... but also against Thomas Sowell, Michael Medved, Bill Bennett, John Daly ... and our own beloved Dixie.

Does anyone still wonder why people some people get absolutely nowhere ... when they're completely consumed by hatred?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

More personal attacks and spewing of hatred ... not only against me ... but also against Thomas Sowell, Michael Medved, Bill Bennett, John Daly ... and our own beloved Dixie.

Does anyone still wonder why people some people get absolutely nowhere ... when they're completely consumed by hatred?

No, wrong again. You're just a robot. I don't hate. Just don't care for those who summarily wish harn on people who may not look or sound like him/her -- Dixie -- and those who offer up the sleaziest kind of bigotry possible -- that's you.

I'm well and fine and where I am is great.

My mind is open and your is closed shut.

No personal attacks. Just calling it like it is.

You can't stand people who reject you and your cowardly and unseemely reverse bigotry psychobbabling where you just repeat what others tell you to think.

Sad, true. Some day your mind will open and you will dicourse with others who do not share your views. Otherwise you miss so much life has to offer.

May (God) have mercy on you.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

No, wrong again. You're just a robot. I don't hate.

So ... all of the personal attacks and curses are examples of ... ?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

So ... all of the personal attacks and curses are examples of ... ?

No personal attacks. Sorry, but no.

You are a (reverse) bigot. That makes you a fool and a coward in my book.

Dixie would like to turn part of the Middle East population into dust. That's called hatred in my book.

Then again, you don't care about my book. Just the ones written by people who think like you and allow your mind to and life to move on cruise control.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

No personal attacks. Sorry, but no.

You are a (reverse) bigot. That makes you a fool and a coward in my book.

Dixie would like to turn part of the Middle East population into dust. That's called hatred in my book.

Then again, you don't care about my book. Just the ones written by people who think like you and allow your mind to and life to move on cruise control.

Hmmm ... I'm trying to resolve the seeming conflict in the two highlighted sections above. Also you didn't address your long and extremely vituperative series of curses.

Please try to help us understand these apparent contradictions.