Another NY trainer caught....

[The Bid]

What it should define is he cheated, and cheating needs to be dealt with swiftly, and severely

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

It seems like many trainers are now using it. He got Pletcher to use it and wear the jacket and now everyone is following. I bet it doesn't hurt to use and I don't think it is super expensive per horse ($1/day per horse), but I am skeptical of it. Seems like just another thing to make the breed more fragile.

more like 1.50 per day....but I use it on my old arthritics and really think it works...as well as when I gave IV legend and IM adequan with daily glucosamine, chondroiten, and MSM....and cheaper.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by wigmore

maybe you truly are a saint but the rest of the world is not like that...

the joy of winning is in the things you can buy with the money you've stolen

lmao!!

i'll settle for buying all my toys with legit funds! i sleep just fine at night.

altho i don't think i'd qualify for sainthood, i do believe in honesty.

[The Bid]

PA, you should try the Aflutop as a sub. Its better than both, and much cheaper.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

What about current or future hall of famers like Pletcher, Zito and Mandella?
Where do you draw that line?

As long as there is competition for money, people will work the edges to gain an advantage. You break the rules and get caught, you get fined and/or suspended.

If you have a beef that the penalties are too soft, why not campaign to make them tougher?

To a great extent the furor over Dutrow is a joke. He's doing his days and paying his fine, isn't he? To say he's "different" is wrong. He's NO different than the others who get fined and suspended aside from perhaps not being an overly penitent person.

Dutrow, for his faults, can flat out train a racehorse. A year ago people would point at him and Allday and claim it was the vet who moved his horses up. Well, he fired the vet a year ago and is doing ok. And Allday, aside from his outburst, is still a great vet.

Dutrow took Kip DeVille over from a guy named Netherland and moved him up. That makes him a criminal? Good trainers move up horses. It's not a crime.

Chuck Simon moved up that filly up 15-20 lengths in a few months. He's a good trainer. That's what is supposed to happen when a good trainer with a sharp eye takes a young horse from an average-to-poor trainer. They often move up.

I'm curious to know if Allday has done any work with Sumoneluveyou?

i do think penalties should be tougher. i also think that repeat offenders should be shown the door. i know good trainers can move up a horse, and i know that not all moves up are due to shady doings. but proven cheaters, especially when they are proven time and again, should not get the same 15 days as a first time offender. or an offender on a lesser charge.

they should have maybe an a, b, c category. X amount of c's would be equal to a lesser amount of b violations, with a being the worst. rack up enough letters to make a bowl of alphabet soup, and your license is denied. period.

why should biancone, who acts oh so hurt and offended, be able to rack up at least three different violations this year alone, with no expectations of anything other than a bit of time away??

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by The Bid

What it should define is he cheated, and cheating needs to be dealt with swiftly, and severely

Perhaps he was just trying to re create his one magical meet when he couldn't lose on the lawn.

[The Bid]

Once youve tasted success its tough to be on the bottom of someones shoe

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was once a time in the 90's when Sciacca was a top the Belmont standings with 30 wins - had a 26.1 win percentage from 115 starters with an avg win mutual of $14.30 for those 30 winners - and was a magical 21-for-56 (37.5% wins) with runners on the turf course.

Gasper Moschera was 2nd in the standings.

How times have changed!

Has he had 21 winners since?

[Danzig]

has there been any issues with sciacca since then? i think that's also a legit question.
altho some think once a cheat, always a cheat (some say that with spouses for example) that's actually not true.
was this catch enough to put someone firmly on the straight and narrow? a lesson learned perhaps?

[The Bid]

Whats his clip since he was caught milkshaking

Originally Posted by Danzig

has there been any issues with sciacca since then? i think that's also a legit question.
altho some think once a cheat, always a cheat (some say that with spouses for example) that's actually not true.
was this catch enough to put someone firmly on the straight and narrow? a lesson learned perhaps?

You could give the guy a pass if his assistant did it while he was away and if he FIRED the assistant. If he didn't fire the assistant right away the liklihood is he was well aware of what was going on and he is part of the problem. Sorry but in the sport of horse racing, once a cheater always a cheater. Overrages are one thing, milkshaking though is a blatant effort at cheating.

You seem to want to be forgiving but do you want to reimburse the people that lose money to horses that won due to cheating.

Remember, usually when someone gets caught cheating there are numerous other times when they were cheating and didn't get caught.

"Oh you were caught cheating years ago! Nevermind the fact that you were stealing money from other owners, trainers and gamblers! It was 4 years ago! You're not winning now so you deserve to keep that money you stole and roam the streets a free man! Hell maybe a hall of fame induction could be in your future!! LOL you're fat and have a good sense of humor! You get a pass lol keep eatin!!"

Originally Posted by The Bid

Whats his clip since he was caught milkshaking

All I know is he was once a force and now he wins at a 6% clip. 6% isn't exactly the 26% clip he once won at.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Why is it incumbant upon us to know what kinds of things people do to cheat us out of our money?

Because this is the most important issue in horseracing, and I think it will be for the next 10 years. I agree anything done to cheat the public out of one cent is abhorrent and intolerable. Period. As the public, shouldn't we be a little more up to speed on the subject?

I hear people say, "That horse must have been drugged" for an unexpected performance. To even barely support that argument, there has to be a reality check - there has to actually be a drug or concoction that could have been given to result in that performance.

Do I think there are trainers that amazingly and regularly move up horses, not due to hay, oats and training? Of course I do. I'm not ignorant.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

You could give the guy a pass if his assistant did it while he was away and if he FIRED the assistant. If he didn't fire the assistant right away the liklihood is he was well aware of what was going on and he is part of the problem. Sorry but in the sport of horse racing, once a cheater always a cheater. Overrages are one thing, milkshaking though is a blatant effort at cheating.

You seem to want to be forgiving but do you want to reimburse the people that lose money to horses that won due to cheating.

Remember, usually when someone gets caught cheating there are numerous other times when they were cheating and didn't get caught.

so why are cheaters still allowed in the sport? that's my beef. biancone got a 15 day sit down, but it was suspended if he didn't get caught anywhere else. so what happens, another positive. so two 15-day suspensions. then the cobra venom. still not enough to show the guy the door for good. so then he thumbs his nose at racing, shows up at the bc when he knows he isn't wanted. but technically the ban hadn't started yet, altho the horses had been transferred. glad the guy at monmouth told him to get lost. he should have to stay lost!
and yes, i do try to give the benefit of the doubt--as this particular case sounds shady. differing stories, trainer on vacation, security may have had the wrong horse, etc. to me the time span fighting it means nothing, as the 'why would i fight so hard if i was guilty' defense means nothing--used pretty often.
what i want to know is if there is anything to go on in this particular case then he said, he said. was the horse tested? was that horse the one who was going to race, or was it a horse that had run the day before? as i said, allegations aren't proof.

if there is proof, by all means, serve the time. people allege jamie sanders is no trainer, yet there she is, license in hand.

biancone got caught with testing. and searching, more than once. he's a repeat offender. but i truly hope that not all offenders are the type to do so over and over.

but then, who's to blame? the many-times over cheater, or the sport who continues to welcome him back with open arms, the prodigal trainer come back to try again? never know, might end up with an eclipse award for his/her troubles.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wigmore

maybe you truly are a saint but the rest of the world is not like that... the joy of winning is in the things you can buy with the money you've stolen

No, alot of the world is like that.

[Riot]

What about current or future hall of famers like Pletcher, Zito and Mandella? Where do you draw that line?

Horse racing has a zero-tolerance policy on some drugs (those with no purpose other than to improve performance - cobra venom, heroin, amphetamines, etc), recognizes some drugs "could" improve performance, and that some drugs do not and cannot.

There are penalties for positives in all those categories. The penalties differ, and they differ for a reason - because all "positives" are not the same, not all positives change or could possibly change a horses performance - and not all positives could defraud the public regarding gambling.

Should Biancone (cobra venom - stops the pain of soreness) be treated differently than Pletcher (mepivicaine, at a level later changed to "allowable on race day" as it can't affect performance at that blood level), than Mandella (a non-therapeutic trace level that cannot affect performance)?

I see them differently.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pmacdaddy

Maybe a stupid question, but were "Milkshakes" legal at any point? Or just something that was not tested for back in the day. At Flats and/or Harness Track.

Yes, milkshakes were legal until the 1990's, and if you go back a few decades, heroin, amphetamines, caffeine, etc. was legal, too.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Gary fought this for the 4+ years given that the investigator changed testimony at least three times about what he saw or thought he saw and what stall Barone, the vet and groom were in at the time. Gary was on vacation.

Just because he is your best customer, do you think it's ok to shamelessly protect him? How much does he spend on the pulled pork?

[trifecta124]

Obviously many here seem to have an agenda against Dee Tee Stable using Gary Sciacca as a trainer.