How do you.....

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

By the way, Smarty Jones ran one great race in his entire career, the Preakness, and failed the one time everything didn't go his way, the Belmont. Calling him great is like declaring a bartender great because the one time you bought a drink from her she somehow managed to pick out the only cold beer in cooler. Let her do it a few more times before acknowledging her exceptional talents.

This goes against your earlier belief (which I 100% agree with) that will they remember you in 25 years, 50 years. Smarty Jones will be remembered as great in 25 years, as he is now by 95% of the racing population. Everyone of his races was pretty amazing (other than the Southwest where he struggled around the track against mediocre types.)

Is Seattle Slew not great because he ran poorly in the Hollywood race?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It takes a special talent for any horse to win with him....however the Arkansas Derby is hardly a career defining race and whether his legion of fans like it or not, the torrential rain prior to his Derby made that race moot. Lionheart was absolutely out of gas when they turned for home and still held second easily. The truth is that nobody ran a step that day.

Hey, losing to Birdstone was no disgrace. But, it was hardly the sign of a great horse.

He was going to win that Derby, torrential rain or not.

[Oaklawnfan]

The debute of an overnight stakes at Oaklawn called "The Smarty Jones" is scheduled for Monday 1/21. They will be handing out Smarty Jones bobble horses to those in attendance. Regular fans of this meet will remember a lot of horses who came through Hot Springs on their three year old campaign, but probably none will be more remembered than Smarty. John Servis won a lot of fans too with how he made himself accessible to the media and the fans. Hopefully some day he'll get another shot. Stew, oh well, Stew is Stew. I must agree that his best win was the Preakness.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It takes a special talent for any horse to win with him....however the Arkansas Derby is hardly a career defining race and whether his legion of fans like it or not, the torrential rain prior to his Derby made that race moot. Lionheart was absolutely out of gas when they turned for home and still held second easily. The truth is that nobody ran a step that day.

Hey, losing to Birdstone was no disgrace. But, it was hardly the sign of a great horse.

The word 'great' was tossed around with all of the following, how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Oaklawnfan

The debute of an overnight stakes at Oaklawn called "The Smarty Jones" is scheduled for Monday 1/21. They will be handing out Smarty Jones bobble horses to those in attendance. Regular fans of this meet will remember a lot of horses who came through Hot Springs on their three year old campaign, but probably none will be more remembered than Smarty. John Servis won a lot of fans too with how he made himself accessible to the media and the fans. Hopefully some day he'll get another shot. Stew, oh well, Stew is Stew. I must agree that his best win was the Preakness.

I so want one!

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The word 'great' was tossed around with all of the following, how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

Barbaro is sort of hard though in my heart I think he was the best because of his abilities on both surfaces. Seems pretty cut and dried after that......Curlin, Bernardini, Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex. I actually probably liked Afleet Alex but he is pretty clearly the last of that group. No disgrace, they're all pretty damn good.

I also wouldn't argue with anyone who put Bernardini ahead of Curlin. That seems arguable.

[robfla]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

none were " great "


Curlin
Barbaro
Smarty
Bernie
Alex

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by robfla

none were " great "


Curlin
Barbaro
Smarty
Bernie
Alex

That's exactly how I would put it.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I also wouldn't argue with anyone who put Bernardini ahead of Curlin. That seems arguable.

Really? It just seems Curlin beat so much better.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Really? It just seems Curlin beat so much better.

I don't know about that. Bernardini lost a race to Invasor where he was best and Invasor was most likely better than anyone Curlin beat at 1 1/4. Hey, I'm a Street Sense fan but he's no world beater. Bernardini was a vastly superior horse to him.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The word 'great' was tossed around with all of the following, how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

1. Curlin
2. SJ
T3. Barbaro
T3. Bernardini
T5. Alex

Not separated by a whole lot. You could make arguments for each.
Hell, Alex was the only one to win a G1 at 2 AND 3 (let alone multiple graded stakes!) He only gets downgraded for the horrible competition he faced and generally lower figures.

I despised Curlin and still do but respect him nonetheless.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't know about that. Bernardini lost a race to Invasor where he was best and Invasor was most likely better than anyone Curlin beat at 1 1/4. Hey, I'm a Street Sense fan but he's no world beater. Bernardini was a vastly superior horse to him.

You're a way better judge than I, but I think the performances Curlin put up in the JCGC & BCC were far superior to anything Bernardini did the year before. Lawyer Ron was pretty good in the Gold Cup too.

[Danzig]

hard to rate them, as only one faced older with a win, curlin. and another tugs at the heart, and isn't as proven, as barbaro wasn't able to stay in competition. of course he did plenty in the short time he had, winning the derby over what was called the deepest field in years, after showing he was a top turf performer.

curlin imo accomplished the most, smarty was undefeated til his second in the belmont--and raced at varying tracks and distances. but i don't know that the crop he ran against stacks up to the 06 or 07 crops. afleet alex i would also put at the bottom. didn't do as well before the t.c. and i feel that crop also lacked depth.

barbaro/curlin
smarty
bernardini

i had bernardini ahead of smarty, but then remembered that bernardini only raced one year-i think that matters. and unlike smarty, he lost his debut.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

You're a way better judge than I, but I think the performances Curlin put up in the JCGC & BCC were far superior to anything Bernardini did the year before. Lawyer Ron was pretty good in the Gold Cup too.

I think all things being equal, Bernardini's effort in the BC Classic would have given Curlin a very hard time. Plus, Bernardini's Preakness win extremely impressive.

I think the two are relative equals, and like I said, could argue either side. I rated Curlin ahead of Bernardini. It's close.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think all things being equal, Bernardini's effort in the BC Classic would have given Curlin a very hard time. Plus, Bernardini's Preakness win extremely impressive.

I think the two are relative equals, and like I said, could argue either side. I rated Curlin ahead of Bernardini. It's close.

close for several of them. hard to compare horses who haven't faced off--or that did without both finishing.
hell, there are people who will argue that alydar was better than affirmed, and easy goer was better than sunday silence-even tho the record is pretty overwhelming to show otherwise.

[philcski]

I think it speaks volumes about the quintet that we all had Alex last.

[smuthg]

I tend to agree with BTW that Barbaro was the "best" of the bunch. Smarty Jones and Barbaro are the only two that I didn't see in person, but Curlin is BY FAR the most visually impressive horse I have ever seen up close. Not just for that reason, but I would tend to put him second, because of his ability to fight (and with one exception) win stretch duels. I'm not sure that I can separate the other three because in my mind when each of them were presented with a challenge, they lost... be it Smarty to Birdstone, Alex in the Derby or Bernardini to Invasor... Now in all three of their cases I think they were compromised by jockeys, but in my heart, I think that Barbaro and Curlin would have found a way to win that Derby, that Belmont or that Classic, and thus put them at the top of this list...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Plus, Bernardini's Preakness win extremely impressive.

True, I'd have to agree with what Drugs said earlier in the thread about it being easier to rate individual performances over entire careers now. (although admittingly I thought this was going to be followed by an avalanche of Discreet Cat posts, but the day is still young and the next primary is a few days off )

That being said...was Bellamy Road's performance in the Wood great?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

That being said...was Bellamy Road's performance in the Wood great?

Without question. But, I also believe he was one of the most talented horses I have ever seen. Unfortunately, he never got a fair chance to show it. Shocking that Ed Sexton wasn't able to prolong his career.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It takes a special talent for any horse to win with him....however the Arkansas Derby is hardly a career defining race and whether his legion of fans like it or not, the torrential rain prior to his Derby made that race moot. Lionheart was absolutely out of gas when they turned for home and still held second easily. The truth is that nobody ran a step that day.

Hey, losing to Birdstone was no disgrace. But, it was hardly the sign of a great horse.

I agree 100% about Birdstone. Nobody is a bigger supporter of him than I am. Unlike nearly every other person alive, I have always thought that on a dry racetrack, at distances of 10f or beyond, Birdstone was simply a better animal than Smarty Jones. Unfortunately their careers were both so short that it is impossible to know for sure.

I disagree with you when you say that the extremely wet track in the Derby makes that race "moot" in any discussion of the horse's greatness. I think the ability to win on different types of tracks probably should be one element considered when determining a horse's greatness. The fact that Smarty actually picked up his feet and ran in that slop (while horses like Birdstone and Borrego didn't bother running a step) seems like a valid and important point in favor of those that argue he is in fact "great."

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The word 'great' was tossed around with all of the following, how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

1) Barbaro
2) Curlin
3) Smarty Jones
4) Afleet Alex
5) Last and least....Bernardini.