Vineyard Haven Sold...

[King Glorious]

Certainly, those kinds of horses would help. But I don't think they need them to be that good. I just don't think they've had more than a couple that were probably the kind that would be considered legit contenders, no matter where they spent the winter. I just don't feel like it's right to say something has failed when it's only had a couple of real chances to succeed. Personally, I feel like it's more logical to say Pletcher is a failure than Sheikh Mo. He's had more chances, he gets great stock, and he doesn't have them winter in Dubai so they take traditional American routes to get there and yet he's still winless. But I don't think he's a failure either. I think in both cases, it just hasn't happened yet. I feel that if Sheikh Mo had spent $5k instead of $5 million on his horses, they wouldn't be looked at as failures. They would be looked at as cheap horses that didn't amount to much and I don't think that because he's got tons of money and spends it like crazy should change the fact that most of those horses he's bought wouldn't have had a chance no matter how much they cost or where they were trained. I think his failure has been in evaluating the horses. That much we can all agree on.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Certainly, those kinds of horses would help. But I don't think they need them to be that good. I just don't think they've had more than a couple that were probably the kind that would be considered legit contenders, no matter where they spent the winter. I just don't feel like it's right to say something has failed when it's only had a couple of real chances to succeed. Personally, I feel like it's more logical to say Pletcher is a failure than Sheikh Mo. He's had more chances, he gets great stock, and he doesn't have them winter in Dubai so they take traditional American routes to get there and yet he's still winless. But I don't think he's a failure either. I think in both cases, it just hasn't happened yet. I feel that if Sheikh Mo had spent $5k instead of $5 million on his horses, they wouldn't be looked at as failures. They would be looked at as cheap horses that didn't amount to much and I don't think that because he's got tons of money and spends it like crazy should change the fact that most of those horses he's bought wouldn't have had a chance no matter how much they cost or where they were trained. I think his failure has been in evaluating the horses. That much we can all agree on.

You are going to have to clarify something for me....

Either he is the absolute worst judge of horseflesh that will ever exist in this game or sending horses to Dubai to prep for the TC series is a poor idea. It can't be both....or neither.

The Sheik has bought the most expensive and well bred yearlings for over 25 years. He has bought the best broodmares available. He has gobbled up as many top 2YOs as he could. Yet, nothing has worked. He didn't spend $5K, or $5 million....he spent hundreds of millions persueing Anerican Classic hopefuls. And, yet, it hasn't worked. So, what is it.

Todd Pletcher has had far less talent in his hands, and accomplished a great deal more in America, than the Sheik. He is a raging success, compared to most everyone, and certainly the Sheik, in this country.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So the wintering in Dubai just happens to be a coincidence? And it just happens to be a coincidence that a lot of the horses come back worse off than when they went there?

No one answered me the first time, so I'll pose the question again. If a European trainer/owner was looking to win the Arc do you think shipping here to prep for it makes sense? Or would a campaign in Europe probably be the better plan of attack?

My argument has never been that going to Dubai for the winter is the best way of doing it. I've only debated those that say that it will never work. I don't see any reason why it can't. If I was presented with facts that said horses wintering over there end up worse off than their American counterparts, I'd listen. But just as easily as someone can point out how Ruler's Court was injured and never lived up to his promise, I can point out War Pass. Just as they can mention a Street Cry, I can mention a Java Gold. I just don't happen to agree that a lot of horses come back worse than they go. I think most of them weren't much in the first place so I didn't expect them to come back and be better. What I think is a bigger issue than WHERE they are trained is HOW they are trained. The Sheikhs have had an abundance of success in Europe. They still have success in Europe with horses they winter in Dubai. I feel like part of the problem is that they try to apply some of the same training principles to win American races as they do Europeans ones and that doesn't work out too well.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You are going to have to clarify something for me....

Either he is the absolute worst judge of horseflesh that will ever exist in this game or sending horses to Dubai to prep for the TC series is a poor idea. It can't be both....or neither.

The Sheik has bought the most expensive and well bred yearlings for over 25 years. He has bought the best broodmares available. He has gobbled up as many top 2YOs as he could. Yet, nothing has worked. He didn't spend $5K, or $5 million....he spent hundreds of millions persueing Anerican Classic hopefuls. And, yet, it hasn't worked. So, what is it.

Todd Pletcher has had far less talent in his hands, and accomplished a great deal more in America, than the Sheik. He is a raging success, compared to most everyone, and certainly the Sheik, in this country.

I don't see why it can't be some of both. He takes bad purchases and combines it with not giving them every advantage to win. Really good horses can overcome things. Average or bad ones can't.

Of course Pletcher has had much more success here than the Sheikh has. But not when it comes to the Derby.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I feel that if Sheikh Mo had spent $5k instead of $5 million on his horses, they wouldn't be looked at as failures. They would be looked at as cheap horses that didn't amount to much and I don't think that because he's got tons of money and spends it like crazy should change the fact that most of those horses he's bought wouldn't have had a chance no matter how much they cost or where they were trained. I think his failure has been in evaluating the horses. That much we can all agree on.

If they were cheap and he won anything I'd say good on him, but they are not cheap. Much of what he's bought and raised (Comeonmom notwithstanding) has been very valuable bloodstock, whether he over paid for it or not. Several of his horses might have had a shot had they stayed in the US, as Bernardini did. Don't you think that Sheik Mo's only US classic winner would have made him re-evaluate his plan to get to the "biggest classic?" Had Bernardini gone to Dubai would he have won the Preakness? Would he have made it back? The lesson of history says "NO" pretty emphatically.
If he'd kept some of these horses in the US with trainers who know more about US racing than Saeed bin Suroor he might have had a shot. He takes a bunch of elite dirt bred colts to Europe every season to race over the bogs of Ascot and York when they could be winning the Hopeful and the Champagne and the Florida Derby and yes, maybe even the KY Derby.

As far as Pletcher, yes he's has plenty of shots but several of them were sprinter/milers with ambitious owners looking to be wined and dined in Louisville and honestly, how many years has he really tried. This year (2008) was only about his 5th try, albeit with about 10 horses each season. Sh. Mo has been after this for a decade and as Andy points out, instead of Louisville in May, he keeps getting Ozone Park in November.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't see why it can't be some of both. He takes bad purchases and combines it with not giving them every advantage to win. Really good horses can overcome things. Average or bad ones can't.

Of course Pletcher has had much more success here than the Sheikh has. But not when it comes to the Derby.

Really? Has the Sheik hit the board in the KY Derby?

The point isn't that he's failed, it's that he has failed miserably, year after year. A huge percentage of the horses he sends to Dubai to prep for American races don't show up until Saratoga, at the earliest. He's not even coming close.

But, you now suggest it's a combination of both, but this belies your initial post in this thread, as do some of your other remarks....

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I like it. If he can stay healthy, I think this finally gives them a legit shot at winning the Derby and I've been rooting for that for a long time. I don't believe that wintering in Dubai is a disadvantage.

So, can you please clarify it all for me now, and tell me which posts represent your true opinion on this. They can't all do that.

[King Glorious]

I don't think that saying that he's not giving them every advantage is the same as saying it's a disadvantage. And again, I'm not saying that he couldn't have more success doing it our way instead of his. My argument has been with those that automatically write off the chances of those that are sent over there saying it can't be done. I think it can but only with the right horse.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think that saying that he's not giving them every advantage is the same as saying it's a disadvantage. And again, I'm not saying that he couldn't have more success doing it our way instead of his. My argument has been with those that automatically write off the chances of those that are sent over there saying it can't be done. I think it can but only with the right horse.

I'm still confused........

It feels contradictory but whatever.

[Bobby Fischer]

i just don't like the way his left-front looks when he strides.

goldolphin bashing aside

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Are you a vet or something? Any experience working with horses?

take a look at the head ons from the calracing replays. Watch the left front during the stretch runs.

i'll post a .gif or something if i get a chance

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think that saying that he's not giving them every advantage is the same as saying it's a disadvantage. And again, I'm not saying that he couldn't have more success doing it our way instead of his. My argument has been with those that automatically write off the chances of those that are sent over there saying it can't be done. I think it can but only with the right horse.

Not giving them every advantage IS a disadvantage. Not giving them every advantage = going to Dubai. Look at Shadwell. Shiek Hamdan, Mo's bro., he has had much more success here winning a bc classic, the belmont and having two horses recently win eclipse awards.
Shiek Mo's whole focus is proving he can have a horse trained in Dubai and then win the Derby. He gobbles up every two year old that wins impressively. Yet, where has he been in the classic races? You are a fan who has been "rooting for this" for awhile. I've learned that being a fan can really distort your objectivity. It sure does mine. If he does win the derby this way, it is going to have to be a horse like Secretariat/Slew. But I wonder, how many has he had that might have been THE HORSE already.

[Danzig]

i think that one thing darley ignores is shipping...we all know that shipping can be hard on a horse, and they do it often, with young stock. they buy here, spend time in quarantine, and then travel. and then a few months later, do it again-while trying to prepare for what is probably the toughest race they'll ever attempt.
perhaps if they concentrated on getting good horses and doing right by them, instead of trying to make the horses fit their mold, they'd have a better thing going each spring. you have to follow the horses cues if you want good results.
blues and royals a few years back was one of their most promising horses. he missed all three classics from illness after shipping here from dubai, eventually succumbing to shipping fever. yet they continue to try. why? seems counter-productive.
but then...he buys horses here to ship to dubai for their carnival-that hasn't worked too well either. how's thor's echo these days?

[Linny]

I have sen all but VH's debut and not seen anthing strange. Besides I would get that Frankel vetted him and that Sheik MO did the same. Unless you have more data and experience that Sh. Mo's vets, it's not worthy of comment.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Linny

I have sen all but VH's debut and not seen anthing strange. Besides I would get that Frankel vetted him and that Sheik MO did the same. Unless you have more data and experience that Sh. Mo's vets, it's not worthy of comment.

Actually, Frankel said publically that he didn't vet him before buying him. However, I'm quite sure the Sheik did.....especially after he consulted with Fischer.

[Bobby Fischer]

i could make a lot of wealthy kings more wealthy and more successful in their hobbies...




...but this seeing a 3 legged horse is nothing special.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

No one answered me the first time, so I'll pose the question again. If a European trainer/owner was looking to win the Arc do you think shipping here to prep for it makes sense? Or would a campaign in Europe probably be the better plan of attack?

But can't you say that Godolphin has been relatively successful wintering their European campaigners in Dubai prior to the start of the regular Euro season?

[Scav]

Per DRF

War Monger was the most recent of seven horses that Sheikh Hamdan has purchased since the summer. Others include the graded-stakes-winning sprinters Tasteyville and Indian Chant, as well as Barbecue Eddie, Merchant Marine, Summer Doldrums, and Pascal.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

Per DRF

Maybe he is hoping one will work out so he can have one decent stallion standing at Shadwell?

[ELA]

As far as whether or not they (Darley) are buying "the right kind of horse" -- well, that could be a debate that goes on and on forever. The results can only speak to one conclusion. Regardless and aside from the horses, I think it's a valid question as to whether or not it's a good idea to have 2yo's here in the US, ship them overseas, prep them over there, and then bring them back for the Derby or TC. I think it's hard enough to win the Derby regardless of where and how you try it, and doing it the Darley way appears to make it substantially tougher.

My take is that even if a horse comes a long and does it -- that doesn't add any more credibility to the position that it's a good idea. Just because one horse does it, doesn't make it a good idea. Possible vs. feasible vs. effective? Perhaps.

I guess wanting to do it "his way" is just as good a reason as any -- for him that is.

Eric

[Linny]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

But can't you say that Godolphin has been relatively successful wintering their European campaigners in Dubai prior to the start of the regular Euro season?

They have been reasonably successful in Europe but they have a "season" where we don't. Apart from some minor regional stuff on PolyTrack, there is not racing over the winter. The season goes from April to October. In April a Euro horse coming up to the big races has been away for a few months followed by legging up and possibly a start before the Guineas, the first Classic. Many of the horses in the Guineas are making their seasonal debut. They are all at the same disadvantage in terms of lack of racing and all make the classics in about the same manner.
Here we begin the 4 month run-up to the Derby on Jan 1st. By the time we get to the Derby our colts have several races often tough "character builders" in advance of the big day.
While you can win British classics "off the farm" it has not worked here in the modern era.