Dick Jauron/Turk Schonert/Jets/Dolphins playalong thread

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The fact that Cassell was even close to 50 sacks is more a testament to the QB than the line. That same unit allowed just 21 last year and their schedule was more difficult then. What was the difference? QB. Nothing changed in the line. The decisions are exactly what were the difference. Decisions to hold the ball too long can be just as deadly as throwing it to the other team.

There are plenty of game managers in the NFL. Frerotte isnt one? His team is in the playoffs and he isnt asked to make many plays. He is the definition of game manager.

I say he is in the bottom third of the league. I will go through twenty that are better:

Would you take him over Phillip Rivers? No.

Jay Cutler? No.

Donovan Mcnabb? No.

Tony Romo? No.

Eli Manning? No.

Peyton Manning? No.

Ben Roethlisberger? No.

Jake Delhomme? No.

Matt Schaub? No.

Matt Ryan? No.

Aaron Rodgers? No.

Carson Palmer? No.

Chad Pennington? No.

Marc Bulger? No.

Tom Brady? No.

Matt Hasselbeck? No.

Drew Brees? No.

Kurt Warner? No.


Those guys are all better and i dont think there is much to debate. These guys are right there and i think are better although its debatable:

Trent edwards
David Garrard
Joe Flacco
Shaun Hill
Kerry Collins

That leaves him at the bottom third...at best.

You give all those guys moss, welker and that line and system and you tell me what they would do.

Warner is 37, not much of a future with him, Palmer has serious elbow issues, Brady has the knee injury that may be worse than we know, He can be as good as Pennington with experience, ditto Delhomme, is better than Bulger at this point, is as good as Schaub.

What is your deal with Hill? Why do you think he is any good?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Warner is 37, not much of a future with him, Palmer has serious elbow issues, Brady has the knee injury that may be worse than we know, He can be as good as Pennington with experience, ditto Delhomme, is better than Bulger at this point, is as good as Schaub.

What is your deal with Hill? Why do you think he is any good?

He is the epitome of a system QB that is successful because of what he has around him. True...he has to make the throws. But reads? Most of the time, he is given two reads max and goes through maybe one progression. Anything beyond that and he gets confused and then is sacked. But how hard is it throwing a three yard inside slant to welker? How hard is it throwing to Randy Moss?

How many times have we seen these types? AJ Feely come to mind? How about Steve Bono? Todd Bauman?

Perhaps im being too tough on him. We will see. He did his job this year and certainly his success was beyond anyone's expectations.

As for Hill, I dont think he is that good. Thats my point. Look at what he did with that line and that receiving corps. Inject Cassell into the niners this year and you think he could have done any better?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

He is the epitome of a system QB that is successful because of what he has around him. True...he has to make the throws. But reads? Most of the time, he is given two reads max and goes through maybe one progression. Anything beyond that and he gets confused and then is sacked. But how hard is it throwing a three yard inside slant to welker? How hard is it throwing to Randy Moss?

How many times have we seen these types? AJ Feely come to mind? How about Steve Bono? Todd Bauman?

Perhaps im being too tough on him. We will see. He did his job this year and certainly his success was beyond anyone's expectations.

As for Hill, I dont think he is that good. Thats my point. Look at what he did with that line and that receiving corps. Inject Cassell into the niners this year and you think he could have done any better?

You cant compare him to those othr guys simply because he has never played a meaningful minute before this year. Let me say once more, there is no harder scenario that I can think of than a guy that has NO experience unexpectedly coming in to replace one of the all time greats on a high profile team and playing well. I can not think of a similar possible scenario in sports. Obviously breaking in with NE has some advantages but no one calls out Joe Montana and Steve Young for being system QB's with great receivers. The only numbers we have on the guy are pretty damn good and logically he will improve as he plays. No one said he was the savior but in football how many guys can really make that claim?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You cant compare him to those othr guys simply because he has never played a meaningful minute before this year. Let me say once more, there is no harder scenario that I can think of than a guy that has NO experience unexpectedly coming in to replace one of the all time greats on a high profile team and playing well. I can not think of a similar possible scenario in sports. Obviously breaking in with NE has some advantages but no one calls out Joe Montana and Steve Young for being system QB's with great receivers. The only numbers we have on the guy are pretty damn good and logically he will improve as he plays. No one said he was the savior but in football how many guys can really make that claim?

In Montana's defense, he won two superbowls without Jerry Rice or John Taylor but i get your point.

Feely had no experience in Philly, had a great streak and cashed in and flubbed. Same with Bauman in Minnesota.

He may very well have a solid career. I agree that he is not a savior.

My point is that teams dont pay 12 million dollars and a first round draft pick for a guy to manage games. For that bounty, they want a QB that makes plays. They want a guy they can build an offense around.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont buy the Moss/Welker arguement. They had no consistent running game all year. Welker is a good player but hardly a difference maker. He is an excellent slot receiver who gets matched up against the other teams third best corner or a safety. Moss had 11 catches the last 4 games. Cassell was certainly a better QB as the season went on and saying he is garbage is ridiclous. He may not be Johnny U but he is better than what the 49ers, Bears, Vikings, Chiefs, Bucs, Rams, Bills, Browns, Raiders, Redskins or Lions run out there and he is proven to be a lot better than Clemmons. I have no idea how good Ratliff is but the fact no one bothered to draft him gives me an idea. The thing is there are only a few really top QB's and guys like cassell who can run an offense, manage a game and not make mistakes are valauble guys.

Disagree... I think Welker is very much a difference maker. I'd take him on my mythical team in a heartbeat.

Let me ask you this, phins fan- would you rather have Pennington or Cassell taking snaps for your team next year? For my money, it's Pennington in a heartbeat.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

Disagree... I think Welker is very much a difference maker. I'd take him on my mythical team in a heartbeat.

Let me ask you this, phins fan- would you rather have Pennington or Cassell taking snaps for your team next year? For my money, it's Pennington in a heartbeat.

Pennington but ask me that in a year I may have a different answer. Cassell had a better season than Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco who are far better comparisons. Welker is more of a product of the "system" than the QB. He is still mostly a slot receiver and was hardly a difference maker with Miami though they did screw up in letting him go.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pennington but ask me that in a year I may have a different answer. Cassell had a better season than Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco who are far better comparisons. Welker is more of a product of the "system" than the QB. He is still mostly a slot receiver and was hardly a difference maker with Miami though they did screw up in letting him go.

Joe Flacco is and will be better than Matt Cassell. Cassell has been in the system for four years and he has had real game experience prior to this year. Flacco was throwing the ball to an 85 year old receiver and one of the ten guys named Mark Clayton that float around the NFL and he did it behind a line that wasnt nearly as good as New England's.

Did he have a better season than those guys? He is home and those guys are in the playoffs. How did he have a better season? Again, inject him into baltimore or atlanta and tell me what he would have done...even with his 4 year advantage in experience.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Joe Flacco is and will be better than Matt Cassell. Cassell has been in the system for four years and he has had real game experience prior to this year. Flacco was throwing the ball to an 85 year old receiver and one of the ten guys named Mark Clayton that float around the NFL and he did it behind a line that wasnt nearly as good as New England's.

Did he have a better season than those guys? He is home and those guys are in the playoffs. How did he have a better season? Again, inject him into baltimore or atlanta and tell me what he would have done...even with his 4 year advantage in experience.

Yeah he has an experience advantage.....holding clipboards. Flacco and Ryan did not have better seasons than Cassell. Making the playoffs may have a little more to do with the Ravens defense and Altantas division than the play of the QB's. Your arguemnets are actually getting more bizzare. Cassell has an experience edge with real game experience? Yeah those 60 passes the last 7 years were the perfect prep.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah he has an experience advantage.....holding clipboards. Flacco and Ryan did not have better seasons than Cassell. Making the playoffs may have a little more to do with the Ravens defense and Altantas division than the play of the QB's. Your arguemnets are actually getting more bizzare. Cassell has an experience edge with real game experience? Yeah those 60 passes the last 7 years were the perfect prep.

Atlanta's division? The NFC South is a million times better than the AFC East, Chuck.. It's the best division in the league.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Atlanta's division? The NFC South is a million times better than the AFC East, Chuck.. It's the best division in the league.

based upon what measure?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

based upon what measure?

Come on. The last-place team is 8-8 and the four teams are ranked 6, 9, 12 and 13 by FO. How could the NFC South possibly be seen as a benign division? You're telling me there's a last-place team that's even close to as good as the Saints? How about a second-to-last place team?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Come on. The last-place team is 8-8 and the four teams are ranked 6, 9, 12 and 13 by FO. How could the NFC South possibly be seen as a benign division? You're telling me there's a last-place team that's even close to as good as the Saints? How about a second-to-last place team?

The Saints have huge problems on defense and Tampa has huge issues on offense. THey played the NFC North and AFC West this year. Atlanta is a mirage and Tampa lost to Oakland in a playoff clinching game. You wanna believe that this division is a million times better than the AFC East fine. But Cassel still had a better year than Ryan.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The Saints have huge problems on defense and Tampa has huge issues on offense. THey played the NFC North and AFC West this year. Atlanta is a mirage and Tampa lost to Oakland in a playoff clinching game. You wanna believe that this division is a million times better than the AFC East fine. But Cassel still had a better year than Ryan.

Cassell had a better year than Ryan because Ryan had a very good running game. Which in turn might have helped in in the passing game. Nonetheless, thats sort of unfair.

All this is really hard.

Where would people have put Derek Anderson two years ago?

I think a guy that derserves much more credit than he is getting
is Rogers. Especially after I saw him absolutely crush a defensive
back after an interception. No really, no running game, a bad o-line,
and I thought the guy did a heck of a good job seeing that he was
running for his life or on his back most of the season.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by philcski

I just wish the Bills had waited 24 more hours to determine Jauron's fate now that Shanahan is available.

The NFL is a fickle sport, isn't it? The Broncos were a terrible team this year and he had them in position to make the playoffs. I don't really understand the firing.

Bills never could have afforded Shanahan anyways. Would take him in a heartbeat but Ralph won't pay his head coaches more than $1-1.5 million a year and for that price you are only going to get the Dick Jauron/Mike Mularkey/Gregg Williams/Wade Phillips types. Schottenheimer would have been the only chance since he played his whole career for the Bills but I'm sure even he would have wanted $3 million a year.

Bills were an awful, awful team last year (30th offense, 31st defense) that played way over their heads to go 7-9 in a remarkable coaching job that Jauron never got enough credit for. This year they were about a 7-9 team (25th offense, 14th defense) that finished with exactly the record they should have. They are still young and have no important guys hitting free agency so can bring back the core, add some free agents, add some draft picks, and hope the players (and OC) can mature. Improve to top 20 in offense next year and top 10 in defense and it could be a solid 10 win season. A complete overhaul on such a young team would be foolish. If they were an aging team about to lose all their top players to free agency (like they were when Mularkey got canned), then it would make sense to start over.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah he has an experience advantage.....holding clipboards. Flacco and Ryan did not have better seasons than Cassell. Making the playoffs may have a little more to do with the Ravens defense and Altantas division than the play of the QB's. Your arguemnets are actually getting more bizzare. Cassell has an experience edge with real game experience? Yeah those 60 passes the last 7 years were the perfect prep.

How is that any more valid than saying the stats the QB put up had more to do with the supporting cast and the system in which he was throwing? What is bizarre about that?

You discount experience of being in the League. Learning a system. Practice. Serving as an understudy to arguably the best QB in the last 10 years. Is this not valuable? Would that not make him more prepared for the NFL than a rookie coming from Delaware???????

What is bizarre about that?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How is that any more valid than saying the stats the QB put up had more to do with the supporting cast and the system in which he was throwing? What is bizarre about that?

You discount experience of being in the League. Learning a system. Practice. Serving as an understudy to arguably the best QB in the last 10 years. Is this not valuable? Would that not make him more prepared for the NFL than a rookie coming from Delaware???????

What is bizarre about that?

You made a ridiclous statement that Flacco and Ryan somehow had more sucessful season because their teams made the playoffs.

Playing anywhere is better experience than practice. This guy never played an important snap in college or the pros before this year. Think about that. Never played an important snap ever in his career. Serving as an understudy is nice but why didnt Dan Marino or Dan Fouts or so many other great QB's understudies come in an play as well as Cassel. The problem is that you want to discredit the guys performance because he played with other good players instead of giving the guy credit for what he DID do despite all the obstacles he had. I am not an NFL scout or coach so I will judge him on what he has done which was play at a high level for a player totally lacking in game experience and improving throughout the season. There was a reason the coach stuck with him instead of bringing in retreads.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You made a ridiclous statement that Flacco and Ryan somehow had more sucessful season because their teams made the playoffs.

Playing anywhere is better experience than practice. This guy never played an important snap in college or the pros before this year. Think about that. Never played an important snap ever in his career. Serving as an understudy is nice but why didnt Dan Marino or Dan Fouts or so many other great QB's understudies come in an play as well as Cassel. The problem is that you want to discredit the guys performance because he played with other good players instead of giving the guy credit for what he DID do despite all the obstacles he had. I am not an NFL scout or coach so I will judge him on what he has done which was play at a high level for a player totally lacking in game experience and improving throughout the season. There was a reason the coach stuck with him instead of bringing in retreads.

So its ridiculous to judge a QB's performance by the success of his team? LOL. How else should we judge them? By stats? You saying that is ridiculous is ridiculous.

I gave him credit for what he did...just not as much credit as you do. The coach saw talent...and a cheap backup. Salary cap management has been vital to this team's success. Why would Belichick/Pioli spend money on a retread when their QB was an iron man and in the prime of his career? A backup with four years of experience and 525k against your cap? He was perfect. Thats why they kept him around...not because he was some kind of diamond in the rough.

If I implied that he had a bad season, it wasnt my intention. I agree...he had a very good season and certainly beyond anyone's expectations. It is certainly arguable that he had a season just as good or better than the guys i named and that argument is valid. I just dont agree thats all.

He may very well go on to be a successful QB. I am just not of the opinion that will happen. Time will tell.

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Cassell had a better year than Ryan because Ryan had a very good running game. Which in turn might have helped in in the passing game. Nonetheless, thats sort of unfair.

All this is really hard.

Where would people have put Derek Anderson two years ago?

I think a guy that derserves much more credit than he is getting
is Rogers. Especially after I saw him absolutely crush a defensive
back after an interception. No really, no running game, a bad o-line,
and I thought the guy did a heck of a good job seeing that he was
running for his life or on his back most of the season.

Your argument doesn't hold much, the Falcons had the 2nd ranked rushing game in the league, but the Patriots had the 6th. The difference is marginal at best, only 10 yds/game more:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...2&d-447263-n=1

Originally Posted by Suffolk Shippers

Your argument doesn't hold much, the Falcons had the 2nd ranked rushing game in the league, but the Patriots had the 6th. The difference is marginal at best, only 10 yds/game more:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...2&d-447263-n=1

The bottom line is the Falcons relied heavily on the ground game
to protect Ryan. And they did a damn good job of it. The Falcons
are a smash mouth running team get in 2nd or 3rd and short. The Patriots
did not play this type of game.

[GPK]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3804004